Saturday, June 16, 2012

Escalation: Police Weapon Evolution as a function of Demographics

PK NOTE: Reader submission (I'll let you try and figure out which regular member of the comment section this one is from). As one of America's biggest proponents of the Second Amendment, I'm happy to publish this piece and welcome - and invite - any regular member of the comment section at SBPDL to submit original material to be published here. I'm working on formatting a number of books - and finishing some research on big columns for Vdare -so please enjoy this guest piece.

Why is crime so low in those states without Red?
For over 70 years Gun Experts have quietly been reacting to the changing demographics of criminals and Race riots by “upping” their loads to be more effective against large blacks. While the overall population of blacks has actually dropped (as a percentage of the population), the embracing of criminal culture by blacks and the near total breakdown of the black family has lead to a minority population that is willing to engage police in gun battles at will. The response to this increase in criminality is plain, though unspoken, for fear of charges of “racism”. Please note I do not include the formation of special units like SWAT and Hostage Rescue Units or other specialized Entry Units but concentrate on the average police officer, nor do I discuss such exotic alternatives as the Tazer or Pepper spray, which are unsuccessful attempts to allow 120lbs female Affirmative Action hires to equal a 250 deputy in the realm of intermediate force.

From the 1880’s up through the 1930’s officers in the USA carried the Colt single action or Smith and Wesson DA revolver and perhaps a rifle in the same caliber (45 Long Colt or the .44-40). There were no SWAT teams, Special Entry Teams, K9 units or “backup”. The motto among police was “One officer, one riot”. Police carried 6 rounds in the pistol and 12 on the belt.

By 1935, the weak 38 Special or weaker .38 Police Positive was king for both police and civilian alike. The 9mm, 38 Super and 45 ACP were avoided because of the smooth full metal jacket ammo that at the time was required for auto pistols for smooth operation. FMJ ammo was also avoided due to over-penetration, bounce and ricochet of FMJ ammo as well as the tendency of the auto pistol to jam more frequently than the revolver without gunsmith attention and for FMJ bullets to “zip” through the human body without apparent effect. Further, Police departments considered 45’s autos to be “for War” and “too much” for civilian law enforcement against Whites. Many famous lawmen still carried the SA Colt Peacemaker in the 45 Long Colt. The .357 Magnum revolvers were not even carried in the regular S&W catalog, they were special order only for “men of exceptional physique” and used for long range target shooting or hunting. The Police standard long gun was the double barrel shotgun or pump, proven effective in WWI. The Tommy guns and high power rifles needed for take down such as Bonnie and Clyde or Pretty Boy Floyd were never adopted by average officers.

In the 1950s, lead by Ed Mcgivern, Elmer Keith and others who saw the writing on the wall, advocated for the widespread adoption of the .357 Magnum with a 158 grain soft lead Keith designed semi-wadcutter slug over the then standard police 38 Special 158 grain round nose bullet for more stopping power. Only experts adopted it as the recoil of the .357 was deemed “too heavy”.

In the 1960’s the excellent .357 Magnum 125 grain hollow point revolver load was introduced, upping the power even more and giving excellent results for stopping (it remains the top revolver fighting load to this day). This load gradually became the police standard for the next 30 years. Revolver magnum hollow points widely appeared and the 38 Special among the police began “The Long Fade”. FMJ ammo was still the only carry ammo for automatics. “Radical” gun guys modified their revolvers by shaving the hammer, tuning the action and had quick draw holsters, which brought the six shot revolver to the high point of its development. The pump shotgun became standard over the double barrel (except in NYC) for its larger number of shells.

In the 1970’s the .41 Magnum was introduced with a soft lead slug for experts. Though it proved to be a failure with minimally trained police officers, experts loved the big N frame .41 Magnum and some still carry it to this day. The even more powerful 44 Magnum was already in existence via Special Order and 4 month wait from the factory and was considered exclusively a hunting arm for Bear or Moose. The weapon was viscerally exposed to the public in the movie “Dirty Harry”. Ironically the first people shot with a 44 Magnum in that movie is are 4 blacks. Demand for Smith and Wesson.44 Magnums far exceeded the supply for the next 15 years. The model 29 (44 Magnum) and the model 57 and 58 Smith and Wesson’s (41 Magnum) proved to be the high point in terms of the pure horsepower in the police revolver. Only one police dept (San Francisco) issued 41 Magnum as standard (San Antonio also did, but insisted that the revolvers be marked “.41 Special for Politically Correct reasons). Later both dropped the 41 Mag as the training level necessary to control such a powerful load was deemed too expensive.

In the late 1970’s, led by the SuperVel company, autopistol cartridges came out with the first hollow points for autos that worked reliably, thus 9mm and 45 automatics were encouraged for speed of reloading and higher number of cartridges. The .357 Magnum still dominated police sales and the powerful 125 grain Jacketed hollow point was standard issue and extremely effective. Shotguns get extended magazines to 8 shots. Rifles are first considered for patrol officers, upping the number of shots from 5 to 8 in a pump shotgun to 20 for a rifle. Gone was the idea of “one officer, one riot” and the militarization of police began in earnest, first with the introduction of SWAT teams.

In the 1980’s police still used the 357 magnum revolver almost exclusively but the autopistol began to make serious inroads encouraged by weapons masters such as Massad Ayoob and Col. Jeff Cooper. Hollowpoint bullets for these weapons increased in reliability and gun manufactures began to turn out pistols that were reliable right out of the box. The 10mm Auto cartridge, equivalent to the 41 Magnum in an auto pistol, was developed and embraced by weapons masters and adopted by the FBI, but this weapon proved too powerful, especially for the female Affirmative Action hires. The FBI eventually settled on a shortened, lower pressure version of the 10mm Auto called the 40 S&W. This was considered a compromise design with more cartridges than the 45 ACP and more stopping power than the 9mm.

In the 1990’s, in the aftermath of the 4 day 1992 L.A. riot (which marked the first filming of civilians shooting blacks with assault rifles on American soil) which made our largest city look like a war zone in Nigeria. After watching the LAPD finding themselves in over 200 firefights simultaneously, the police went over completely to the auto pistol. Police abandoned the concept of the pure horsepower and reliability of the revolver so as to gain a numerical number of cartridges defense against large numbers of minorities attacking at once or extended firefights. The concept of +P cartridge designation developed, as auto pistol owners still longed for the horsepower of the revolver. The Great Debate began between the 9mm advocates and the .45 ACP devotees. Older cartridges such as the 32 ACP, the 9mm Kurtz (380 Auto) and to some extent the 9mm were dropped for lack of power against large blacks. Each officer now carried 45 or more bullets in total in three magazines of 15 cartridges each, one in the gun and two more on the belt. Body armor is now recommended for every officer and sold by companies such as Second Chance, Inc. Military rifles in .223 are issued by request to patrol officers as SOP with 20 round magazines in L.A. as an alternative to the pump shotgun. The 9mm Submachinegun makes it first appearance on the 1992 L.A. streets but lacks range and striking power. Accuracy also suffers because of the difficulty of mounting optics.

In the 2000’s it was standard for police to be issued 17 round magazines (51 Shots total on their person!) in 40 S&W. The 38 Special and 32’s are considered only for housewives or backup guns. The police long gun standard is the AR military rifle in .223, though stories of failures to stop influenced Springfield Armory to release the .308 M1A (A semi-auto version of the Army’s former Main Battle Rifle, the M14) in a shorter barreled “Scout Squad” version, directly aimed at the civilian police market. Reports are favorable and several major police departments adopted the weapon. Reliable 25 round magazines are available.

This increase of over seven times the firepower in the space of only 100 years represents an unacknowledged but important change in the thinking of those who carry weapons. As the demographic of felon has changed (more likely to shoot back, larger physically, less concerned with the consequences of shooting police, etc), the reaction of the defending professional has been to shoot harder, faster and more.








127 comments:

map said...

Because the 9mm is such a common gun, recent developments in the 9mm hollowpoint design make it an excellent manstopper and has reliably closed the distance between 9mm and 45 acp.

The Glock models allow for interchabgeable barrels. A Glock 23, for example, can have a 9mm. .40 and .357SIG barrel.

Laz said...

I up-fit police and emergency vehicles and 3/4 of the officers that come in carry Glocks in at least 357 (most are .45). While the rest carry a 1911. I've seen none with a 9mm. They all almost exclusively carry 4 extra magazines.

Zenster said...

PK: I'll let you try and figure out which regular member of the comment section this one is from.

My bet is on 10 mm AUTO being the author. My second guess would be Van, but that is a distant second. Third guess would be Californian just because of the great writing style.

Zenster said...

Oops, I shouldn't have left out Discard. He's definitely up on his firearms.

Anonymous said...

There was no such caliber as .38 Police Positive. The Police Positive was a Colt revolver chambered in .38 Special

Zenster said...

This increase of over seven times the firepower in the space of only 100 years represents an unacknowledged but important change in the thinking of those who carry weapons. As the demographic of felon has changed (more likely to shoot back, larger physically, less concerned with the consequences of shooting police, etc), the reaction of the defending professional has been to shoot harder, faster and more.

All of which coordinates with my own observation that criminals, Black criminals especially, have made two dramatic transitions.

● Originally, much of Black offenses were crimes of opportunity.

● During the 1970-1990 decades there was an increasingly predatory nature to Black crime. Literally, as if they were hunting their victims.

● Of late, there has been emerging a pattern of vicious brutality which transcends any callous disregard for human life and more closely resembles the inflicting of extreme violence for the pure pleasure of it. The Knoxville Horror and more recent incidents involving victims of minor crimes being set on fire reflect this escalation in savagery.

Small wonder them that LEO (Law Enforcement Officers) feel compelled to carry higher caliber weapons with expanded capacity in rounds. It is slightly ironic that 19th century police thought Blacks who were high on cocaine became impervious to gunfire.

Coming full circle, Blacks under the influence of PCP and other heavily psychoactive drugs now exhibit a startling immunity to riot clubs, tasers and gunshot wounds. This, in combination with the increased viciousness of Black criminals, can only be taken to mean that LEO are far more inclined to inflict lethal force upon hardened criminals. I'm confident that this is reflected by an uptick in the number of "good" fatal shootings involving the apprehension of known violent Black felons.

Anonymous said...

Public support for police would greatly increase if the police were not required to treat every person they meet just like they would a potential black criminal. They do this because they don't want to be called racists, but it is stupid.

Most people do not require violence and shouting to be convinced to behave or move along or whatever. A simple statement and rational discussion could get the job done with minimal stress on everybody. But since a subset of the population only responds to primitive violence, the cops have to treat everybody that way or they'll be accused of bias.

I love it when I am out with my family at some SWPL hotspot and everybody is relaxing and having a good time, and some cop shouts at people like they are rioters waiting for an opening to go on a rampage.

10mm AUTO said...

Zenster! Yes, this is my first. I know it reads like a technical brief, as I don't have Paul's humor on this subject, but there you go.

As to the critics:

"There was no such caliber as .38 Police Positive. The Police Positive was a Colt revolver chambered in .38 Special"

Ummm no. The Colt Police positive was chambered in the Colt "38 New Police" also known as the 38 S&W. This cartridge is far weaker than the 38 Special. The 38 S&W bullet exits with with a velocity of about 600 to 650 fps, far below the the 38 Special. Further, the 38 S&W is a shorter cartridge which does not fit in the Colt Police Positive Cylinder. You are correct in that I incorrectly worded the caliber (38 Positive for 38 Colt New Police), however I had that revolver firmly in mind, nor does it detract for my analysis of a continued escalation of police sidearm power or that the 38 Special or the Colt 38 New Police are no longer considered adequate.

Mutant Swarm said...

"...Body armor is now recommended for every officer and sold by companies such as Second Chance, Inc..."

Second Chance Body Armor Co. was founded by one Richard Davis, after he was shot in a holdup attempt in Detroit, by three blacks who were robbing his pizza delivery workers. (Some things never change.) He returned fire, wounding two of the attackers and getting shot twice himself.

For those not familiar with him, Davis used to do a sales pitch for his product that consisted of shooting himself in the chest while wearing a Second Chance vest.

Anonymous said...

Question for you guys.
About me: age 30 black male, southerner my whole life, graduated top 4 high school above 1500 (1600 sat scale @ that time), accepted to state university (avg sat for all students 1300, white students 1380) , graduated in 4 years (do think u get affirmative action in computer science either your right or wrong)

Anonymous said...

Continued...
I own a successful small business and employ about 25 people. (all races mostly white/indian due to the labor pool for our industry). I don't have any affirmative action contracts as we compete on results in our line of work and government contracted work is not something we do. I am a very strong 2nd amendment supporter, life time NRA member, NRA firearms instructor an CHL carrier.
I work my butt off to provide for my wife of 4 years and our 11 month old daughter. (not that it is important my wife is black and also college educated and a health professional while a little more liberal on some issues she is fairly conservative and libertarian like myself.)

We live a good life drive nice cars (love my 560hp cls63) and work hard. I pay more than 100k a year in taxes (just to see people I went to high school with that are unmarried single with three kids getting 9k+ refund checks plus welfare)

My point is while I know I am a minority why do I get such resentment both from blacks and from whites?

I have been stopped for no reason (usually the cops apologize after identify my self as a concealed weapons permit holder) I know once they know I'm CHL I'm probably not a bad guy drug dealer or robber. But why did I get stopped? Is it my 120k AMG with young blak male (usually in dress shirt or polo shirt)

Anonymous said...

Much of this is wishful thinking. In a gunfight, any pistol is always a poor choice to a rifle. Google FBI Miami shoot out and see what a couple of rubes with a varmint rifle (Ruger Mini-14 .223) can do to seasoned law enforcement officers. Also, it is interesting to note that the gun battle ended when the bad guy was shot with a 38 special.


For concealed carry you don't need big, but something you can aim quickly and shoot accurately. Small frame concealed handguns in larger calibers are not easy for many people to shoot. If you can do it, fine.

If you are carrying concealed and need a long range gun, you are probably in line to be arrested. If a bad guy is threatening you, and you shoot him, you should be prepared to prove that you couldn't have run away. Shooting anyone who is more than a few paces from you is asking for big trouble. You don't want to shoot a negro thug, and then wind up in prison with dozens of them looking at you like you are their bitch.

The thug Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman, who killed him with a 9mm, and even he is fighting for his legal life. An evil prosecutor always holds the trump card.

There are so many variables for the average citizen to consider. It is not always bigger is better. In fact, the best advice is to avoid the savage's environment.

Anonymous said...

Continued...
The cops usually walk away confused. Honestly more blak cops have pulled me over than white in my home town. Out of town and on highways it's almos always white?

I am pretty conservative but identify as libertarian (go Johnson!)

I in my life have found most situations where I have incountered crime it was usually one thing in common lower socioeconomic class. Both white and black. Usually more black given they are over represented in the lower class. (usually by bad choices they or their parents made and continue to make).

I recognize I benefited from affirmative action. Maybe not as directly as some would think but most certainly from my parents and family friends.

You see my parents were both college educated and they went to segregated schools until senior year of high school (1971 I believe). They both went to the states premier university. They both became professionals married and had children. Their friends also were college educated black and professionals as well as professionals of all races. We grew up in a mostly black church with a high percentage of professionals. We played soccer and basketball with mostly other professionals kids (meaning mostly white kids), our parent demanded excellence in school and taught us that we had to be even better than our white counter parts (they grew up in a very racially tense time and also resented being viewed by some of their professional peers as affirmative action picks. They were proud people). Fastword to middle school early high school I was attracted to white women (hey I played ice hockey and usually associated with mostly white peers in school and activities . Then it happend. My white girlfriends parents forbid us to "date" any longer. They set her down told her that while they knew I was a great guy smart and came from good family if we continued to date we might get married and then have children an those children will have challenges in identity. When she told me it brok my young heart. Good thing was we were still allowed to e friends and stayed in touch but never dated (now she works at a strip club has 2 kids from wuickie marriages to soldiers (white men at that) that failed ).
The next year my mother transferred me to an inner city urban school with about 75% black population but outstanding acedemics and a great climate (now the school has gone to crap new generation of kids have now respect). Life moved on for me and everything came full circle. Because of my experiences with all races I became a well rounded person and Ecuador of my parents no excuses you must succeed method in raising me and my siblings we are all succeful productive members of society.

But we all feel the same. Caught between a black society that in many respects does not match us social economically and a white society that is seams unwilling to accept us peers.

Thanks for your time sorry for the split posts typing this on an iphone. Please respond I am interested in all views. I hope to respond to you guys and plan on making an account here. Not trolling just seriously interested if it's behavior or true racism or is if it a mid understanding

Whiskey said...

A few things, the old Colt Single Action was a proven man-stopper, it was used when the Army's pathetic .38 (not the Special) failed during the Philippine Insurrection of the Moros. Big, heavy bullets going relatively slowly have proven to be manstoppers over the centuries, the Civil War featured bullets as large as .60 inches. However against that, smaller, faster traveling bullets of which more can be carried and have greater accuracy/range have been a trade-off.

Having shot the .357, the 9mm, the .45 auto, the .38 special, I will say the lighter calibers (9mm, .38 special) are easier to shoot and more accurate, the heavier ones are more difficult to put on target for the casual shooter (of which many police officers really are).

I would agree completely with Zenster's observations on the evolving behavior of Black criminals, I would note that Heskith's "Journey Through Hayti" available (still, for now) on Google Books for free, published in 1901, observed ordinary Haitians enduring physical abuse that would kill men of other races.

My own guess is that the revolver for civilian ownership is not done. A few powerful loads, shoot and scoot (to evade a crowd) is likely to be the order for armed civilians who merely wish to survive. The size of crowds often impedes their ability to punish people; witness many battles in the Classical World (Cannae, Trebia, Lake Tresimene, Thermopylae, Marathon) where larger forces because of their size were annihilated by smaller, nimbler forces.

FWIW the Texas Rangers have mostly switched over to the Sig .357 SIG pistol and cartridge, as it is good at shooting through windscreens and car engines. The 1911 Pattern seems a favorite for armed civilians, flat, powerful, traditional, ergonomic with practice. Serpico carried a High Power while on duty and his dexterity (he was fairly unusual in practicing regularly) may have saved his life as he fired and wounded his attacker while stuck in the doorway.

Bemused stare said...


All of which coordinates with my own observation that criminals, Black criminals especially, have made two dramatic transitions.

● Originally, much of Black offenses were crimes of opportunity.

● During the 1970-1990 decades there was an increasingly predatory nature to Black crime. Literally, as if they were hunting their victims.

● Of late, there has been emerging a pattern of vicious brutality which transcends any callous disregard for human life and more closely resembles the inflicting of extreme violence for the pure pleasure of it. The Knoxville Horror and more recent incidents involving victims of minor crimes being set on fire reflect this escalation in savagery.


Carbon copy of the change seen in South Africa in the last 30 or so years.

Whiskey said...

Let me also add that Massad Ayoob and others have conducted surveys of shooting incidents, only relatively few of shots fired by trained officers under stress hit their target in most gunfights (around 38% IIRC).

Pistols and revolvers are just hard to get hits with. Even for those with training (armed civilians often don't train even as vigorously on average as police officers who also don't train much -- because ammo is expensive).

The Times Picayune in New Orleans Pre-Katrina ran an article on how the Black criminal class did not fear the 9mm, but did fear greatly the shotgun because it reliably killed people. One of the Neville family was a habitual criminal, dealing drugs, had been shot and hospitalized 7 times, before finally being killed by a rival using a shotgun. Criminals in the article laughed that they would not prone out for 9 mm handguns but would drop like rocks when a shotgun appeared. Within thirty yards a slug loaded shotgun can be quite accurate and the power is essentially the same as 17th or 18th Century musket, appalling power.

make it rain TRUTH said...

Larger guns, increased militarization of the police, and more restrictive laws... all in response to black criminality.

Don't think so? It's interesting, as noted here by SBPDL in a recent posting about 'da ATL, where if you removed black criminality from the mix; you practically had 1950s Mayberry.

Anonymous said...

In 1937 the NRA's January "American Rifleman" actually called for the banning of the .357 Magnum to Americans. Neal Knox reported this in Shotgun News years ago.

http://books.google.com/books?id=dA3pGSYG2yIC&pg=PA349&lpg=PA349&dq=neal+knox+on+the+.357++magnum+history&source=bl&ots=JKtTuRn17I&sig=jyo7oxmms6DPBmmA-7sseqKtWbw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=D0PdT86gD4-C8ASmutmxCA&ved=0CFEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

In the current tactical environment, we must contend with people wearing body armor. The closest thing we got is the FN 5.7mm PDW round, which IS attacked by gun controllers as a "Cop Killer" round. You NEED "Cop Killer" rounds if you are attacked by government agents using their millions of .40 S&W rounds. Other rounds that have AP capability are old 9mm sintered iron core ammo from Germany and post-war Czech rounds. American Rifleman years ago removed these sintered-iron core bullets and loaded them into .380 ACP cases; when fired from a Walther PPK they completely penetrated soft-body armor. Those who have access to a metal turning lathe can construct their own versions of the french THV AP rounds from copper.

7.62x51mm NATO rounds have significant anti-barricade capability. Who can afford an M1A? Try an FAL or CETME/PTR-91 if you are poor.

Last but not least, if war comes to America, the use of low-power by low-noise ammunition MAY become important to concerned citizens. I suggest non-Black readers acquaint themselves with the material on http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane1.html

R Neville said...

I have a hypothesis (or just wishful thinking) that the "bath salt cannibal syndrome" in which the CDC warned LEO agencies last year about will create a need for lethal slashing weapons to be reintroduced to the LEO working arsenal. Only very high-caliber weapons with extreme blunt force (like the mini ball of blackpowder fame) stopping power, or the quick work of a slashing stroke of a sword or axe to decapitate will be effective against these drug-addled crazies.

Anonymous said...

Consider something, in the 1980's if you wanted an Assault Rifle based weapon: Intermediate Cartridge, Detachable box magazine, usually 20-30 rounds standard, ~16 to 20 inch barrel standard, relatively compact; You'd have to buy an AR15 or Kalashnikov derivative.
In the last 30 years, particularly the last 10- the market for assault rifle based semi automatics has expanded exponentially. Americans have run out of space to run, there are no more suburbs to flee to. Sooner rather than later a stand is going to have to be made, and the American people are arming up for it...

Zenster said...

10mm AUTO: Zenster! Yes, this is my first. I know it reads like a technical brief, as I don't have Paul's humor on this subject, but there you go.

Congratulations! You have produced an easy to read and well thought-out piece that reaches some useful conclusions.

With the insane and barbaric sort of TNB that is in current display, it's no wonder cops want some major stopping power.

Please keep up with more contributions. It's a joy to read work by someone who so obviously enjoys the topic being discussed.

Anonymous said...

To the Anonymous Black Guy...

Unfortunately, you get resentment because of your less respectable 'peers'. It's not fair, but neither is it fair when we are judged as a group. I feel bad for the good blacks because of this, but the bad ones have just gotten SO bad.

Zenster said...

anon: Question for you guys.
About me: age 30 black male, southerner my whole life, graduated top 4 high school above 1500 (1600 sat scale @ that time), accepted to state university (avg sat for all students 1300, white students 1380) , graduated in 4 years (do think u get affirmative action in computer science either your right or wrong)


Go fix up your neighborhoods and please stay out of ours until the lot of you are housebroken. Until then, do not expect much sympathy or help. No matter how nice of a person you may be, the odds are way too high that, if you live in a White neighborhood, some of your relatives or ghetto homies will visit you and share their TNB with everyone around you. Too many raped sisters and daughters follow in the wake of "nice" Blacks for anyone to care about how you fit in or don't.

Darfur Miller said...

First, no one carried six rounds in a Colt SAA or similar except in immediate preparation for an imminent drawdown. You always carried on an empty chamber or a primed empty case because if you dropped the gun it had a high probability of hitting the hammer and going off. Ruger solved this problem in the sixties or seventies with the transfer bar safety-ninety or so years later better than never I guess. (The bad guys would occasionally carry a rolled up bank note in the chamber to bury them if killed, but usually not-they didn't care, most of them.)

Second, the stopping power deficiency of rounds below .40 caliber was proven in the Moro insurrection, but departments issued .32s as late as the early fifties and .38s well into the seventies or early eighties. Cops finally demanded bigger guns when they all read Jeff Cooper in the magazines and put pressure on through the union. That was just as the crack wars started in earnest and the first generation of AFDC welfare babies became of shooting age.

The average genetic quality of even underclass blacks took a substantial dive when AFDC meant any lazy young black female could gt her own apartment and sense of adulthood simply by letting the nearest, least responsible flamboastin' buck cover and breed her. The steady but slow improvement that blacks had achieved between the end of Reconstruction and the New Frontier was wiped out in one generation.

AFDC did also genetically reduce that segment of white society we sometimes call "trailer trash", a dysphemism unfairly denigrating many decent people of all races living in mobile housing. But they are a small enough portion of whites that white society was not highly impacted. Blacks were profoundly impacted as a group.

As FAEM's 'Maguire' points out, both blacks and whites were benefitted hugely by the state run programs,now much belittled and demonized, to weed out and sterilize the profoundly deficient. Since these programs are never going to re-occur (at least until the complete and total implosion of the present societal matrix) the loss to both peoples is permanent, but it will always specially set the blacks back.

Anonymous said...

@10mm AUTO

Well done. I will forward this to some policeman friends to wake them up. I am not much of a firearms guy so I appreciate the info-history you presented.

Californian said...

Two quick comments:

During the 1970-1990 decades there was an increasingly predatory nature to Black crime. Literally, as if they were hunting their victims.

Please note that this is occurring after half a century of every DWL social engineering and civil rights policy being implemented.


Carbon copy of the change seen in South Africa in the last 30 or so years.

I was going to say that, beat me to it! Question: is there a political component here, that a sector of blacks uses these criminal attacks as a form of insurgency against whites? Or is it something much more primal, a struggle for territorial dominance between two sub-species?

Anonymous said...

The .41 Magnum was invented after the .44, only so that police departments had a politically less notorious alternative to the .44. That way they could say they had selected a more moderate alternative to the .44. In reality the two are functionally close enough there is no meaningful difference except that you can shoot the .44 Special cartridge in the .44 as well.

Interestingly the .44 Special was used as the basis for the .44 Magnum only because of a quirk in the .45. The .45 Long Colt has a nominal bore diameter of .455, whereas the .45 ACP had a bore diameter of .451. No good reason, just worked out that way. So all the jacketed .45 bullets were sized .451. If you loaded them in a .45 LC case you had to crimp them down and the cases rattled a little. Elmer Keith therefore chose the .44 over the .45, as correctly sized jacketed bullets were readily available. Later the .455 Casull and .460 S&W-the latter really a presentable bigbore rifle loading-upped the ante, but Hollywood had enshrined the Model 29 and its cartridge as the ultimate hand cannon by then.

.45 had many advantages not fully realized at the time, such as the commonality between its base and that of the .410 shotshell and if memory serves the .303 SMLE Enfield, brass for which could be used to make special loads. Shorty .410 shells and 5 in 1 blanks could have been used easily, unlike with the .44.

Anonymous said...

Blacks are prone to greater adrenaline rushes leading to manic behavior when excited and feel no pain during their episodes. Carlton Coon confirms the hyped-up adrenaline glands of blacks. Often their all-out frenzy leads to sudden death syndrome after a confrontation with the cops. That's why some of these tools seem to have no effect at the time, the subject is almost having an out-of-body experience. Add drugs such as coke, bath salts, booze, whatever, and you have a real handful.

nameispointless said...

As a small female [5'2", @ 113#], who needs protection in BRA and gang riddled Mexifornia, I trained on both a 38 Special and Glock, prefer the 38. Much easier to access and fire, find it more accurate on the practice range.

Jay Santos said...

10mm AUTO, very nice job.

Aside from upgraded weaponry, a really important change in police behavior has been the shift to treating every encounter as a potential hyper-criminal, life and death situation.

I was stopped by not one, but two cop cars a few years back, entering a parking area without a seat-belt. While one cop was asking me questions, the other was on the passenger side glaring in at me. Was I going to draw a weapon and begin firing? Can't be too careful these days I suppose. A dangerous line of work.

We've got the dramatic change in the type of negro violence to thank for this, as Zenster points out. Also, of course the explosion in illegals wandering freely about the country.

So, we all get treated based on the lowest common denominator. And, wow, is that denominator low these days.

Anonymous said...

Ret'd LAPD here. As someone who has seen hundreds of gunshot victims in my 20+ years as a street cop, there is no caliber that is better than another. Let me quantify this.

I remember one self defense killing where a 120lb female killed her 300lb Suge Knight looking boo with a .25acp pistol. One round to his forehead and it dropped him so fast the coroner said he was dead before he hit the ground.

I have seen far more gunshot deaths by a .22 than any other round. One case in particular, a man shot and killed two thugs (Hispanic gang bangers) with his Beretta Jetfire, one round each, center mass.

Once, while meeting a parole agent at Men's Central Jail, I saw a large black guy with a caved in head mopping a floor. I asked the deputy what happened to him, and was told the guy took a 12 guage shot to the head. Don't know if it was a slug but this guy lived. He remained a criminal and was in jail for felony battery.

I have seen people survive multiple gunshots while high on PCP, only to die when they came down off their high.

I am not advocating carrying or defending yourself specifically with a .22 or .25; by the same token I have never seen anyone shrug off getting hit by one of these calibers either. You have to look at it from the perspective of a jury. I have been saying this to friends and family for decades: choose a gun that even the most bed wetting liberal can reluctantly accept someone using in self defense. The FN 5.7 and other pistols will seem unnecessarily exotic and thus infer to the uninitiated that your killing of someone is mere bloodlust and your claim of self defense has no merit. I have seen this.

Some claim the cops are your enemy. We are not. The criminal justice system is what keeps many in peril as defense attorneys try and often succeed to get their violent clients out of jail and back on to the streets. Many district attorneys are fearful of being called racist because most cases that come before them are yet another black face charged with yet another Part 1 crime.

Getting back to the guns, it was necessary to adopt a handgun that offered ammunition capacity beyond the standard 6 rounds carried in a revolver. Plus the training regimens had to change, not just because of familiarization with a new weapon but to modify muscle memory which had gotten cops killed in the past, like retrieving and stowing their expended brass cases during a firefight. With easily swappable magazines that had over 12 rounds each in them (depending on caliber), cops now had ample ammo to engage suspects who were heavily armed.

I would suggest getting either a medium size automatic pistol, in one of the three common calibers: 9mm, .40 S&W or .45acp or a .38 revolver that can shoot +P (higher powered) loads. I would suggest hollow point ammo, and not go with anything marketed as for use in submachine guns. You have to think outside the box and put yourself in a possible scenario where your shooting will be under intense scrutiny by the DA and lawyers for the family of the guy you killed. I have never met a cop who ever said anything along the lines of "How dare the public defend themselves with a gun!? Only WE should be able to carry a gun when we aren't working!". Not once, ever. This is why it is still a misdemeanor in California for a law abiding person to carry a concealed pistol without a permit. A person defending themselves wants distance between them and their assailant, and that is what a gun does. It provides viable self protection and puts distance between the victim and attacker.

As for a shotgun, I am ambivalent about them. They are very destructive. I would highly recommend a .22 rifle, which can easily be articulated as a self defense weapon inside your home. Also, the M1 carbine.

The bottom line is that any caliber can kill, it is shot placement that matters. Think as if you may one day be in front of a jury and have to explain why you shot a guy while in your home or on the street.

Memphis Teaching Fellow said...

Dear Anonymous Black Guy,

I started coming to these blogs that discuss the difference between the white and black behavior, and acknowledge the horror of how low the black average has dipped after becoming a teacher in the inner city Memphis. Before that, my exposure to the black people were limited, but the ones I knew were good, respectable people, no worse than anyone else, as a group. I know it's a cliche thing to say, but you asked for honest sincere responses, so here it goes: some of my very best and dearest friends in the world are black. One is a military brat I met in college. Her single mother raised her on an air force base. My best friend doesn't think of herself as "black", but "hispanic" because she is from Dominican Republic, but she is of obvious African ancestry. Both of these girls are wonderful, intelligent, friendly, hard working people. So you see, i recognize that people of African descent can be worthy individuals equal to or better than myself, no matter what background they come from. I think the vast majority of the American people, even those who visit blogs such as this one, understand this. We know that black people are individuals. When we encounter you as individuals, we judge you by the content of your character. I want you to know that when I see you, I really do see you. I know who you are immediately, by your body language, your facial expression and your minor actions, and I respect and like you.

I grew up in a liberal metropolitan suburb where I was taught to think that all races were completely equal and to judge all people on their own merits. What has changed is that i can no longer think that all races are equal, on average. I'm still not sure what to think about all the data about biological differences, but I know for a fact that black people in America, as a group, are to be avoided. What I've seen in the inner city of Memphis and Chicago (where i was trained) is beyond words, beyond comprehension, beyond what I consider to be the limits of human behavior. Sure, I've encountered degenerate whites, but they were usually not as bad, and more importantly, their equally poor and uneducated white peers scorned them, rejected them and turned them in. On the other hand, I've yet to find a black neighborhood that is truly nice, even among the wealthy black suburbs. Their classrooms are still louder and more rowdy and people are still less polite, then they are in the predominantly white suburbs.

BUT, if YOU or someone like you were to move into my neighborhood, I'd embrace you. I would gladly sit next to you at our kids' school play. I'd naturally invite your child to my child's birthday party, watch your kids in case of an emergency and let my kids go to your back yard bbq. When i was in high school, the only black family in my neighborhood lived literally next door, and they were great people. My dad shoveled them out of their house on the snow days when their dad was away on a business trip, and I get rides to school from the older brother on a few occasions when i missed the school bus. I really think that most people have nothing against the 'good' blacks. It's just that, through experience, many of us have come to realize that the "good" black people are statistically a lot more rare than any other kind.

Memphis Teaching Fellow said...

(Continued) Dear Anonymous Black Guy,



I'm sorry for the way you must feel being a good black person in America. I guess all i can tell you is that everyone feels misunderstood, stereotyped and alone in some respects, but each one of us can make our own lives acceptably good by being good people. It looks like everything has worked out for you already thanks to your good nature and hard work.

A piece of advice, if i may...
One think that has always frustrated me about functional black people is that they seem to attribute hardship and general life's annoyances to being black. I'm sure, you've experienced some unpleasant situations because of your race, but that happens to everyone. Most white people face situations where they are made to feel silly or embarrassed simply for being white. Everyone gets both punished and rewarded for simply being themselves (male or female, straight or gay, white or black) at some point in their lives. I promise you that someone has already thought something bad about you and someone else- something good simply because you are male. Maybe their attitudes had even affected your life in some way. That's a part of human condition. Losing a half of an hour of your life to being stopped by a cop isn't the worst thing in the world. I'm a small white woman, and I've been pulled over for no reason too. Your daughter will probably stress out over her nose and hair and insufficient beauty/femininity/desirability. Please, don't attribute this to her blackness. As a white girl who went to a predominantly white/Asian school, I can assure you that the vast majority of teen girls hate their hair and spend hours trying to do something to it, so they can hate it less. We've all felt insecure and as though no one on TV looks like us, other than as a joke. All teenagers get hassled by unfamiliar adults once in a while, and everyone gets questioned by cops without an obvious cause. All you can do is not take it to heart and continue being a good person. The rewards are obvious and many. :)

Ray Scissom said...

We don't intend to imply that black people are entirely incapable of succeeding and being valued members of our communities. The problem black people face is that people like yourself (a very small percentage) aren't a net positive to the black community. I'm sure you live in a nice, predominantly white area where nobody will mess with the Benz. You're employing mostly white and Indian people. Even if the culture of death, dependence and dumb lets a few people through unscathed, it's not like you're going to go clean up the hood. Worse yet, you're probably ostracized for "acting white".

You are treated this way by the police because people who look like you are committing a disproportionate number of crimes compared to people who look like me. I'm glad that you found success as a self made man, but to pretend that people (statistically speaking) shouldn't assume that you're a drug dealer would deny the reality that nearly every other young, black male driving a $100k car probably is. To ask white people to give you the benefit of the doubt is absurd. If three black dudes approach me on the street, my first instinct is that they mean me harm, not that they might be curious what the DJIA closed at today. That's called realism and my instincts have been cultured by experience, not an irrational fear of people who look different.

The difference between you and I is that while we both probably cringe at how negative black culture is turning the cities into toilets and entire generations into dependent wastes, you could actually do something about it. Black people have made it pretty clear that while they want my money and preferential treatment that takes opportunity from my children (who have never taken anything from black people directly or indirectly), they sure as shit don't want my opinion or advice.

Again, I congratulate you on your achievement and success and commend you for doing it the old fashioned way. Just remember a few things. When you feel like someone is treating you wrongly because of the color of your skin, you need to assign blame to the huge percentage of young black males who created the stereotype being applied to you, not the person who has applied it based on reality and experience. You are statistically a unicorn being ridden by a leprechaun holding a bouquet of four leaf clover that has been struck by lightning eleven times, not the new standard by which black people will be judged. Even if overnight we could apply your intelligence and ambition to half of black people, we'd still have 6% of the population committing half or more of the violent crime and suckling at the welfare teat 5-to-1 over any other race.

Anonymous said...

our parent demanded excellence in school whereas almost all others are taught by their parents that learning be racis'n'sheeit

nameispointless said...

O/T, but TNB and too good to ignore. Small wonder no one was shot.

Black mamas duke it out at kindergarten graduation

Dissident said...

How ironic that as I sit here and read this, that a local constable was shot in the stomach by a corn-rowed Negro. This is the second attempt at killing a law enforcement officer in just two years here locally by feral Negro's. Both times, the officers were saved by wearing body armor.

This latest assualt was a .22 caliber weapon by the assailant.

Dissident said...

To the black professional.

I can sympathize with your plight as it must be hard for a black "conservative/libertarian" to see 99% of his racial brethren as Obama supporters.

The problem arises naturally, with guilt by association, or the perceived guilt that comes along with being of certain races, groups, etc. Of course, it's not fair, but it is the reality that we all live in.

If you're honest then you'll realize that 99% of the commentors on this blog are not RACIST (TM), but rather RACE REALIST (TM). We just make commentary based upon experience and observation, much like a scientist would do via the scientific method-I'm sure that you can relate as you have some smarts about you.

For the record as a white man, I'm thrilled that you're succesful as a business man. I wish for the day that most blacks would rise to your level, but I'm not holding my breath as the Democratic party is working overtime to keep the black race forever enslaved and blacks seem to love their enslavement too much?

Don M said...

Anonymous Black Guy -

Congratulations on your success. It sounds like you are pushing the extreme right side of the black IQ bell curve. Furthermore, I am sure I speak for many here when I say that I admire your courage for engaging us in an even, rational manner.

Unfortunately, as you well know, in terms of raw numbers people like yourself are statistically insignificant in the black population.

It pains me to say this, but guys like you are actually more dangerous to us than your impulsive, low IQ brethren: 1. There aren't enough of you to change the black community for the better. 2. You keep the IKAGO myth alive in the minds of countless whites.

I wish things were different. Good luck to you in your future endeavors.

Anonymous said...

Well, for an ol' back woods type. The best home defense I would be relying on is the Rem 870 12 ga with a load of 0-buck or 00-buck. The 45, 1911 army, and the Ruger mini 14, 223. An I.E.D. here and there with command detonation gives me a peace of mind. As for crowd control. I practice long range shooting, shoot and scoot. As another poster puts it. Since I shoot good far away. I feel I'll hit no problem close up. If I end up with my back against the wall, then some explosives come into play. I will discus no details, all I can say is they are a crowd mover. It'll clear a hole, or create one for a stand. I like to be low. My whole plan depends on being underestimated, Easy target.

Bemused stare said...

I have been stopped for no reason (usually the cops apologize after identify my self as a concealed weapons permit holder) I know once they know I'm CHL I'm probably not a bad guy drug dealer or robber. But why did I get stopped? Is it my 120k AMG with young blak male (usually in dress shirt or polo shirt)

What I read here is that you feel unfairly treated. If you are as smart as you say, look up the latest crime stats and you'll get an idea why this happens.

Now if you feel badly about this, why not stand up and do something about the reason it happens?

Dissident said...

Negro's strike again!

http://posttrib.suntimes.com/news/lake/12915290-418/family-grieves-schererville-womans-killer-still-at-large.html

Another excellent reason to be well armed and to practice defensive measures against the murderous impulses of the feral Negro.

Celebrate Homogeneity said...

"For concealed carry you don't need big, but something you can aim quickly and shoot accurately. Small frame concealed handguns in larger calibers are not easy for many people to shoot. "

And that is a problem for me; my hands are relatively large. I have tried holding those smaller handguns at the local gun shop; they won't work for me.

At my relatively advanced age, I bought my first firearm only about 2 months ago. It's a .22; nothing fancy, but it will get me started on learning what I am doing.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 10:32 Got it right. Rodney King was over the limit and possibly on other things he was tasered twice and even needed multiple blows from the Rhino whips before he was in a state that he could be safely handcuffed. To think that the LAPD guys stopped the CHP officer from having a justified homicide and the LAPD officers were showtrialled for saving his life.

Laz said...

@ Celebrate Homogeneity: While the smaller calibers may be fine for point blank shots I personally don't think they could stop somebody further away 100% of the time.

Just about any pistol (of sufficient caliber) with a double-stack magazine should be big enough for your hand. They also make rubber grips for most handguns. Think of those rubber skins for your cellphone but, for your gun grips. Ultimately you need something big enough you feel comfortable firing and just small enough to conceal. Next time you're in the gun shop/show stick that sucker in your belt to see how it conceals. *Most dealers are used to that but it may be wise to ask first. lol

Watch this guy, he has big hands too. He has reveiwed A LOT of guns and is pretty informative: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeLxP6Kywzk

hardscrabble farmer said...

I own 2 Police Positives and both are .32 caliber.

And to Wealthy Black Male commenter:

As Jefferson once said, "...the two races, equally free, cannot live in the same government. Nature,habit and opinion have drawn indelible lines between the two..."

I feel for you, I really do, but my family and the future of my own people trumps any allegiance I might have had to applying a standard of equanimity across the lines of race that clearly do not exist in equal measure.

That my children, in order to make up for some wrong never committed against your own children, must be forced to deference is equally unfair. Surely your high level of intelligence can grok that fact.

Anonymous said...

Interesting read that caused me to reflect on my own professional past for a bit. Fresh out of the Marine Corps in the late 1970's, I went to work for the police department in one of America's largest cities. A city that was the nation's murder capital with more than 700 murders here during my second year on the street. Back in those days it was the wild west every night, and in my second year on the street I became that statistical rarity, a police officer who actually fired his weapon in the line of duty.

In the ensuing years I went on to become that ever rarer of creatures, the guy who was involved in more than one shooting.

- Weapons policies back in the 70's and early 80's was backward mostly because the dudes making policy were WWII and Korean vets who were not progressing well. My firearms instructors in the academy thought semi-autos as being unreliable weapons used by pimps and poor shooters.

- Information about the changes in weapons technology was slow in coming and hard to find sometimes.

- Training was nothing like today. We've progressed technically in huge ways.

- Body armor sucked. It was expensive, and wearing it was a miserable experience in our high-heat, high-humidity environment. I stopped wearing it because of comfort issues, and because it hindered my ability to move, fight, run, jump, etc.

- Body armor has gotten much better, and 100 times more comfortable. I could sit in my car all day wearing my huge tactical vest when I was in Narcotics and not feel the least bit uncomfortable. Lighter weight patrol armor is hardly noticeable when worn. And we now have a mandatory armor use policy so it's not even a question.

- Back in the 70's the well-armed and techically/tactically proficient big bad opponent we were really concerned about were the nutjob radicals like the SLA.

- As better firearms became available for the police, the same happened for the civilians. It's basically the same market. The good guns started to find their way to the streets and the Saturday Night Specials gradually went away.

- When crack hit us in the 80's, crooks upgraded their weaponry. The guns were better because technology was better, they had crazy money to spend on such things and bought the best, and their rivals were all doing the same - a rapid increase in the weaponry of the bad guys increased.

- Not all crooks are stupid, and some of them started to figure out tactics. This filtered down eventually to even the stupid ones.

- Small calibers suck. They always have and always will. A .45 is the round of choice for a handgun if all you care about is stopping power. A 40 S&W caliber is a decent alternative. I would never carry anything smaller.

- We always knew the smaller calibers sucked, but we were often stuck with what more limited choices than are available today. My first semi-auto was a S&W model 59 9mm that I came to call the boat anchor. I trashed that for my first 45 and never looked back. Still, that old government model had drawbacks, notable in the magazine capacity. Over the years, as technology changed, I adapted and eventually wound up with a couple of Glocks in .40 caliber. The 40 is my choice because I'm much, much better with that than a .45. Being able to get back on target post-recoil is a factor in combat.

- We carried carbines and rifles back in the 70's. Political correctness made them go away in the 80's. The North Hollywood shootout started to bring them back in limited situations. September 11, 2001 opened the floodgates and every guy with a badge suddenly had a M4 in his car.

- The big scary black guy being immune to bullets was never much of a consideration for anybody. Small bullets sucked on most suspects because they suck period. Big dude, small dude, white black or brown - if you shoot them with a small caliber they ain't going right down unless it's a kill shot.

Big Picture said...

Dear High functioning Black. Though I find it near impossible that a negroid, National Merit Scholar, Libertarian (!) would be posting on SBPDL and think it far more likely that you are a DWL; your total lack of ability to grasp the big picture is astonishing. Your race is a predatory, dangerous presence in this Country that all of our Founding fathers realized needed to be removed. I would trade the 100 rapes our people endure by blacks for your presence in this country in a second. Moreover, I can not see how you try to justify negroid presence because of a few high functioning individuals. The negroid race is damaging our Culture, our children and our nation and must be expelled or expunged. It is like having a garden with weeds. Sure, a few of the weeds are very green and lush, but they are a danger to the crop nonetheless. By the way, can you name the 75% black school with "high academics" and a "great climate"?

Far better for you to be an Ambassador or head of Industry for Nigeria or Cameroon. After all, the one eyed man is King in a Country of the Blind.

Believe me when I say that a great sociological Storm is coming for the black in the USA and it would be best to leave now before the purges. Your people need you! Your race is calling and your races presence here is damaging ours.

I, for one, will shed a tear as the tiny rowboat pulls away with the high functioning, college educated, Libertarian ones like you. The carriers and Supertankers loaded with the rest will be merely a relief.

Good Hijack of the thread, by the way.

Anonymous said...

Notice that after 150 years they are still mostly grouped around the old slave areas. Slavery was the original 'cheap labor' to do the 'jobs Americans won't do'. That labor was of course not cheap -- we're still paying for it everyday as documented at SBPDL. Too bad we never learn from our mistakes.

Anonymous said...

The phenomenon of a heavily militarized law enforcement community can-I believe-be explained by the simple presence of blacks in this country. And a lot of Europeans who spent the last 30 years shaking their heads over our violent episodes are apparently getting the chance to find out for themselves just why American society has so many instances of violent behavior.

White people,left to themselves,usually get along with each other pretty well,and usually obey most laws and regulations that are in shouting distance of making sense. And the laws that we used to have usually reflected that fact.

Not that us Blue Eyed Devils didn't have our share of bad actors,but the proportion of those bad actors was probably around 5% of the male population,or maybe a little bit less. And that 5% was confined to...call it "military age" males. Most of the time.

So a police officer or deputy going to work in the morning pretty well knew that he only had to pay serious attention to maybe 2 or 3 people out of every hundred or so that he ran into that day. And there was always a good chance that he wouldn't run into any of those characters at all,and he could look forward to a job that involved really and truly helping people.

Such as getting people out of wrecked vehicles,stopping reckless drivers before they did some real damage,and in general,making sure that the wheels of society stayed greased.

Throw in an element of the population that is apparently incapable of behaving according to white standards,and all of that goes out the window. My guess is that the bad actor fraction of the black population is something along the lines of 30% or a bit more,as long as we're talking about males. So right off the bat,the same policing methods that work quite well for white people plain and simply will not work for the black population.

On top of that,you have to take into account a vigorous and totally unrestrained civil rights industry that has to keep the rice bowl full. The best way to keep the rice bowl full-and even have a little salt to go with the rice-is to litigate or threaten to litigate. Thus,every time Dartavious is in dire need of getting a whack over the head with a baton,just to make him pay attention to what he is being told,or every time Shaniqua needs a good Tasering,just to get her to step out of the vehicle and pay attention to the officer who pulled her over,the poor deputy-and the department as a whole-faces financial and public relations ruin.

Either one would be bad enough by itself,but together the two make a combination that has for the most part turned every police force in the country into something that-when compared to the police departments I was familiar with 30 years ago-can no longer be recognized.

.45jack said...

Well done 10mm AUTO, well done.

As a former student of the late and great Jeff Cooper I am a diehard .45 fan (hence my screen name).

I recommend following the rule of "if it doesn't start with a 4, don't buy it, with the exception of the .357 magnum" (as in .45 ACP, .45 Long Colt, .44 or .41 magnum, .454 Casual, .40 S&W etc). Now some of these calibers are way too much for many people (especially women and the elderly) but it is important to follow another rule: bring enough gun.

Get the most powerful pistol you are comfortable with handling, be it a revolver or automatic. I suggest the time proven .45 1911 should be a novice's starting point. And I can not stress this enough: do not buy any gun that does not feel right in your hands. Take advice but do not buy just because the "expert" recommends it (that includes me!).

But having a big gun is useless if you are not proficient with it. A .454 Casual that misses the attacker is just as effective as a spit ball that misses. Train. Train. Train.

And the most important thing you must learn to train is your mind. More specifically, your mindset. It is a cliche that "gun-fu" is an
American martial art but it is true.
I could go into details here but suffice it to say there are lots of great books and websites that will teach you how to master your thinking when it comes to being one with the gun, being aware of your surroundings, assessing the threat levels, etc.

Another rule from Jeff Cooper to remember: a pistol is only used to keep you alive until you can get to your rifle. But that is another topic so I will stop here.

.45jack said...

Zenster said:

"Go fix up your neighborhoods and please stay out of ours until the lot of you are housebroken. Until then, do not expect much sympathy or help. No matter how nice of a person you may be, the odds are way too high that, if you live in a White neighborhood, some of your relatives or ghetto homies will visit you and share their TNB with everyone around you. Too many raped sisters and daughters follow in the wake of "nice" Blacks for anyone to care about how you fit in or don't."

An outstanding response Zenster! Outstanding!

I would only add that it seems also that so often these "good ones" have children who grow up with TNB even when they are raised in nice White neighborhoods.

Dissident said...

BREAKING NEWS...........

THIS JUST IN......

HEADLINE!! Rodney King found dead.........Yaaaawwwwnnnn.

Anonymous said...

To Anonymous Black Guy: I've lived in Japan and Hong Kong. In each country, the people have a distinct culture and one comes to recognize what behaviors may be expected of the people in general. In Japan (for example) honesty, integrity, honor, commitment and the concept of being worthy of whatever you receive are very strong. In Hong Kong, the majority of people believe that honest people are fools and the only way to get anywhere in life is to lie, cheat, steal, swindle and use other people. The people who are most effective at such behaviors (in Hong Kong) are considered "very clever."
In each country, one quickly becomes street wise and knows what to expect of the general population. In that regard, I came to have a deep respect for the Japanese people and yet had no respect for the people in Hong Kong whom I viewed as corrupt, untrustworthy, treacherous and two faced in the extreme.
The problem in America is that black people (as a group) tend to be more like the latter than the former and tend to be ignorant, uneducated and highly violent in addition. Any recogniton of this fact is declared to be racism when it is simply a recognition of an obvious reality~ being street wise to the situation and acting accordingly for purposes of self protection.
However, in viewing the situation I see a parallel between blacks and Hong Kong Chinese. Neither likes to be held to account for whatever behaviors are commonplace in their communities and any attempt to do so results in anger and denials or counter accusations. For the Hong Kong Chinese, this usually takes the form of "losing face" if publicly exposed- one is revealed publicly and the masquerade can no longer continue. The shame is not in what one was doing but in being publicly revealed and exposed. For black people in America, this gets expressed as "just trying to make black people look bad." In both instances, anger is the obvious result~ anger not at themselves for the behaviors which result in the ostracism but anger at the exposure and the resultant ostracism.
Black people get looked down upon because of their own common behavior as a group~ not because people are racists.
In every group there will be a percentage who are exceptions but that small percentage does not exonerate the majority in terms of their everyday commonplace behaviors and conduct as a group.
In that regard, one would be a fool to not recognize what black culture in America is and not take appropriate precautions regardless of whether this results in screams of racism etc or not.
Black culture is the problem- not the reaction of the majority population to that culture.
Another example- In Japan, the local community had a really bad problem- American teenagers shoplifting like bandits from local stores. This naturally resulted in my being placed under extra scrutiny (as an American teenager) in Japan as I belonged to the demographic responsible for the on going crime wave. I did not resent the Japanese for doing so because they were proceeding in a logical and sensible fashion in order to protect themselves and their livlihood. I did not think it was racist either. Their reactions were utterly and completely reasonable, justified and fair.
As a black person in America, you find yourself in a similar situation~ extra scrutiny because of the behavior of your demographic. I'm sure it's not pleasant but your demographic is to blame just as mine was in the aforementioned example.

Lex32 said...

"June 16, 2012 5:49 PM
Anonymous said...
Question for you guys.
About me: age 30 black male, southerner my whole life, graduated top 4 high school above 1500 (1600 sat scale @ that time), accepted to state university (avg sat for all students 1300, white students 1380) , graduated in 4 years (do think u get affirmative action in computer science either your right or wrong)"

You really expect us to believe an above 1500 SAT scorer doesn't know the correct usage of "you're" and "your"?

Bwaaahaaaaaahaaaa! Nice try.

YIH said...

And now for some news to make you smile:
Rodney King is a good rockfish now!
Silly People™, swimming pools are for humans!

Zenster said...

Bemused stare: Carbon copy of the change seen in South Africa in the last 30 or so years.

Which is why I intentionally left out any specific regional reference in my escalation list, despite it referring to American Blacks.

Events in the UK and, yes, South Africa tend to indicate that this is a global trend amongst Black criminal elements.

A basic list of prime movers in this behavioral shift by Blacks would include:

Access to Advanced Technology
Not just improved semi-automatic weapons but also cell phones have enabled a degree of agility and increased impact without requiring any commensurate expansion of intellectual capacity.

Downstream Effects of Consistently High Dropout Rates
Decades of education avoidance and its de-emphasis in the home have denuded what was already a relatively barren problem solving toolbox. Stupidity has not just gone unpunished but has been de facto rewarded by an indiscriminate social benefits structure.

Relaxed Legal Repercussions
Lack of harsh prison conditions, conjugal visits and near-zero stigma―if not actual prestige―from being incarcerated have neutralized any deterrence posed by the law. This is further compounded by social benefits and legislation that reverse much of the disincentive regarding how unemployable convicts once were.

Debased Morals and Ethics
A near-continual decline in morality driven by the destructive synergy of nonexistent nuclear families and a constant glorification of promiscuity by entertainment media; most especially (c)rap "music". The additional valorization of brutality in movies and television has only served to encourage a subtext of total depravity.

Legal and Social Protections
Government programs like Affirmative Action, disparate impact legislation plus unilaterally enforced "Hate Speech" and "Hate Crime" laws have all created a sense of immunity to consequences that were far more immediate and severe during the era of Jim Crow. This has been further augmented by Politically Correct DWLs conferring "protected species" status upon Blacks in both political and societal venues. Liberal "soft racism" in the form of lowered expectations has only exacerbated the problem.

Taken in combination, all of these changes have tacitly condoned increasingly depraved behavior which, in turn, necessitated the militarization of law enforcement and caused a well-justified polarization in race relations that has wiped out several decades of progress towards any viable sense of equality.

That Blacks continue to externalize all blame for this downward spiral into extreme TNB eventuates a return to Jim Crow, the possible institution of apartheid or even outright expulsion.

AmericanGoy said...

"I have seen people survive multiple gunshots while high on PCP, only to die when they came down off their high."

That... that is amazing!

Anonymous said...

Fact: the leading cause of death of young black males is ... surprise, surprise.. YOUNG BLACK MALES.

Zenster said...

YIH: And now for some news to make you smile:
Rodney King is a good rockfish now!


You could have safely bet your entire life savings on the early demise of this poster boy for TNB.

From the link:

"Rodney King was a symbol of civil rights and he represented the anti-police brutality and anti-racial profiling movement of our time," the Rev. Al Sharpton said in a statement. "It was his beating that made America focus on the presence of profiling and police misconduct."

No, Mr. not-so-Sharpton, Rodney King was not a "symbol of civil rights". He was a pluperfect example of TNB and what happens when it is rewarded by a protective legal system. His premature death was as predictable as it is laughable. The only surprise is that King didn't end up taking three bullets in the face from some gangsta drug dealer like crack-addicted Black Panther Party founder Huey Newton did.

The video shows King cowering on the ground and attempting to crawl away as he is surrounded by a crowd of police officers. Four of them used their nightsticks to strike him.

The usual bullsh!t narrative. Just as the video snaps into focus, King lunges at the officers and then continually tries to get up instead of laying still and allowing himself to be cuffed. This world would have been a much better place if that CHP officer had just capped his stupid @ss.

PS: Thank you, YIH, for brightening my day. Another Black icon has demonstrated his eminent unsuitability for any further oxygen consumption.

Ray Scissom said...

I'm by no means a firearms expert, but I have experience with many handguns, rifles and shotguns. In the event that I come to depend on a firearm, it won't be caliber or anything other than my handling and how calmly and capably I can react and put as many rounds as it holds into a critical area of their chest. Whether I'm using a throw away .22 or a nickel plated .50 with pearl handles, it does me no good if I can't effectively retrieve it, aim it and pull the trigger. The right weapon in life and death situations is the one you're holding.

I'm glad that the police are able to carry more firepower to defend themselves against the out of control criminals in this country. I don't do anything that would put me in their sights, so I'm not worried. In the event that they somehow become my enemy, I'm well armed and comfortable in defending myself against whomever. What bothers me is that their rules of engagement requiring them to use non-lethal force in some cases puts their lives at risk. If someone is dumb enough or depraved enough to direct threatening behavior toward a trained, armed police officer, they deserve to die. There's no reason that we as citizens should send our sons and daughters and mothers and fathers out to keep the peace and hamstring their training and instincts by pretending that some degenerate criminal's life is worth more than theirs regardless of the perception of professional race baiters and ambulance chasers. The taser, pepper spray and non-lethal rounds are all fine and dandy for quelling the occupy movement (largely comprised of skinny, wealthy white kids who want to live) but have no place on the hip of a cop who approaches tinted out hoopties all night in high crime areas. When I get pulled over, I roll all the windows down, pop the dome light on, turn off the engine and toss my keys on the dash. When the cops approach, I ask if I can reach into the glove box to grab my papers. I speak to them with respect and they almost always respond in kind. If there's a weapon in the car, I tell them and make sure they know it's legal and not a threat to them. To date, I've been shot zero times by the police using this method.

YIH said...

UPDATE!
Oh it gets even better!
He be doin' blunts an' fawties befo' gettin' good!
However, Captain Kirk has yet to give a statement to police.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Much of this is wishful thinking. In a gunfight, any pistol is always a poor choice to a rifle. Google FBI Miami shoot out and see what a couple of rubes with a varmint rifle (Ruger Mini-14 .223) can do to seasoned law enforcement officers. Also, it is interesting to note that the gun battle ended when the bad guy was shot with a 38 special.


For concealed carry you don't need big, but something you can aim quickly and shoot accurately. Small frame concealed handguns in larger calibers are not easy for many people to shoot. If you can do it, fine.

If you are carrying concealed and need a long range gun, you are probably in line to be arrested. If a bad guy is threatening you, and you shoot him, you should be prepared to prove that you couldn't have run away. Shooting anyone who is more than a few paces from you is asking for big trouble. You don't want to shoot a negro thug, and then wind up in prison with dozens of them looking at you like you are their bitch.

The thug Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman, who killed him with a 9mm, and even he is fighting for his legal life. An evil prosecutor always holds the trump card.

There are so many variables for the average citizen to consider. It is not always bigger is better. In fact, the best advice is to avoid the savage's environment.
June 16, 2012 6:15 PM

They weren't Rubes, they were highly trained Ex-Military, who practiced regularly with the weapons they carried and used.

YIH said...

And the lulz continue!
Here's rockfish rodney and our hero, the pool!
Check out what's on the wall, you will $#!+ bricks!

Zenster said...

Anon (6/17 8:30 AM): The phenomenon of a heavily militarized law enforcement community can-I believe-be explained by the simple presence of blacks in this country. And a lot of Europeans who spent the last 30 years shaking their heads over our violent episodes are apparently getting the chance to find out for themselves just why American society has so many instances of violent behavior.

Worst of all, Europeans didn't have any cotton to pick but they still imported masses of Blacks and Muslims (or both) who are now busy making their collective life an everliving hell. Just ostensibly Christian Blacks are bad enough but Black Muslims? You've got to be several tacos short of a fiesta to willingly pollute your homeland with that sort of dregs.

I can only suppose that the next lesson for them to learn will be about their much sneered at ownership of firearms.

Consider just one prime indicator. British Bobbies never used to carry guns. Now they do. What happened during that transition? The bulk importation of Muslim Pakistanis and African or Caribbean Blacks. With its surge in Black Muslim immigration, Sweden's rape statistics have skyrocketed by 13X. Much the same has happened in once idyllic Norway.

Yet these European Social Engineers continue to blather on about a "Mediterranean Union" as some sort of utopian goal. They must be madder than outhouse rats.

Kylie said...

My guess is 10mm AUTO is the author of this piece.

In any case, I hope the author will contribute more articles. This one was excellent. Thanks.

Celebrate Homogeneity said...

Laz: Thanks very much for the advice and the video.

Kylie said...

"10mm AUTO said...
Zenster! Yes, this is my first. I know it reads like a technical brief, as I don't have Paul's humor on this subject, but there you go."


Great job. I love Paul's humorous style but your style suited a technical subject just fine. I really like the clear, concise way you gave the information. It made it easy for me to understand.

More, please!

Zenster said...

Ray Scissom: In the event that I come to depend on a firearm, it won't be caliber or anything other than my handling and how calmly and capably I can react and put as many rounds as it holds into a critical area of their chest.

While I understand and share your sentiments, never needlessly empty your firearm of ammunition as there may be other assailants lurking in anticipation of that exact scenario. Always reserve a few spare rounds for any additional "cleanup" should that prove necessary. This pertains even when you are carrying an extra clip.

robins111 said...

It must be the definition of confusion in Detroit today, after all isn't today Fathers Day and all.

Zenster said...

Ret'd LAPD, since this is a gun-related thread, would you please give us the benefit of your personal insights regarding the North Hollywood bank shootout? It would be very interesting to get your take on that pivotal event.

Anonymous said...

The best gun is the one in your hand at the time you need it.

One well placed shot to the head will take down anyone regardless of ciliber.

Zenster said...

From one of YIH's hilarious links:

According to our sources, King's fiancée, Cynthia Kelley, is telling friends King was at the house all day drinking, and he smoked marijuana at some point, before she went to bed at 2:00 AM.

That tells you something right there. She went to bed alone. When your husband-to-be finds malt liquor and Irish tobacco more entertaining than the prospect of bedding you, well … let's just say that the bloom is off the rose.

We're told Kelley says she next saw King at around 5:00 AM when she was awoken by him screaming in the backyard. Our sources say Kelley found King naked, banging on the glass, and she called out to him, "What's wrong, Rodney?"

Sounds more like sizzurp or bath salts to me.

Kelley is telling friends she then went to grab her phone when she heard a big splash. She then went to the backyard and discovered him in the bottom of the pool and called police.

In other words, she heard him take the swan dive and probably could have saved Rodney's worthless @ss but likely didn't know how to swim and dasn't go near that mean ol' pool.

Then again, maybe she didn't want to get her weaves wet or had just done her nails. Either way, her meal ticket just got punched and what do you want to bet that Rodney died intestate?

PS: Q.What are the rules for Los Angeles Poker?

A. Four clubs beat a King.

john said...

A)Did that N---- Rodney King get that pool from his settlement money? If so the irony is awesome! B)One major change in the black community that is never discussed is the abandonment of the blacks by the so-called "Talented Tenth",those blacks with a high aamount of white blood. Cashing in on Afirmative Action,these clods have swarmed into the Ivy League ans other top notch schools to get phoney degreess(so what? They are not going to be needing degrees;they black,aint they??)and migrate to high paying bullsh*t jobs. These are often simply white people with a blob of black blood. They seem to avoid N-----s like the Plague. Thats why huge,shockingly huge,tracts of city land that once boasted thriving white communities--I am from Chicago!--are wastelands of low population density broken down ghetto pieces of sh*t. The black buck start/maintain businessess?? Thats a sick joke. Blacks also are being preyed upon by their own unscrupulouis kind.The importation of feral Africans to mix/breed with the domestic stock may also play a role in the increasing savagery. The Talented Tenth has so strenuously deserted the race that blacks are becoming Haiti-like.

Zenster said...

And now, it's time once again to play…

Drum roll please…

Guess Which Race!

3 more charged in fatal puppy burning

Sheila said...

And the IKAGO (I know a good one) cargo cult begins again. Some of you (Memphis Teaching Fellow) might embrace self-proclaimed .1% black guy as a neighbor. I would not. Blacks are predators or parasites; the .1% who can function at White levels are not worth the trouble the rest cause. Typically, he claims a 1500 SAT (I'd presume after renorming, so drop it by at least 100 points) yet has execrable spelling, grammar, and overall diction. He's also numerically illiterate if he cannot look at averages and easily available statistics regarding black behavior. Hey, folks, he's a good guy, just wants to understand why evil racists like us don't want him around, nome sayin?

As my husband noted the other day, he cannot escape blacks on t.v., in newpapers, in schools, in stores, and now they're determined to bring their diversity to HBD and altright sits on the internet. I'll say it again: Segregation today, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever.

Anonymous said...

Rodney King was a no account bum, but I can relate to the no booty with the fiancee thing. Getting engaged is a definite damper in my experience, except for a couple nights after the engagement and before the wedding.
(If you practice premarital whoopee, my advice is to do it a lot in the week before the wedding, because the wedding night is no time to do anything but sleep. Exhaust yourselves beforehand so that the day after the wedding or two you'll be charged up and ready for some serious loving. I've been married twice, second time for 32+ years and going, so i know from experience.)

AmericanGoy said...

I just want to state for the record how loathsome this site is, populated with racists ganging up on the black guy who just wants to live a decent, successful life and is as appalled as the rest of us at the black "thug culture"...

Just kidding!

I am very pleasantly surprised by the genuine good feeling, "atta' boy!" and encouragement given to this fella.

Basically, the statements from the people on this site boil down to this:

We are A-OK with you, good luck to you, but unfortunately there are too few of you (successful, normal, SANE black folk) out there; wish there were more.

We do not want you and your family to move into our neighborhood, because the percentage of ni**ers to black people (Chris Rock's words, deal with it) is NOT good, and once a normal, sane black person/people move in, others of less savoury morals and lower IQ inevitably follow, leading us to lose our money as we sell our houses at a discount, all so our kids can survive their school day.

We do not hate you, in fact, many of us (I certainly) feel for you.

But we have seen it before, the one good one bringing many thugs around, the rising petty crime, noise level, murders...

So (at least myself and I feel many others), we do not hate you - we feel for you, and wish you all the best (or at least, don't wish bad things to happen to you).

However, stay the hell away from us, as, statistics prove about black people, your people as a whole are very dangerous and ill suited to civilization (unlike, say, Chinese, Japanese, Thai, German, Poles, Italians, Irish, Russians, etc etc etc).

Sad, but true.

The thing to change about black community would be to obliterate black culture and this "achievement and success = acting White" insanity from schools and, indeed, from adults also.

Otherwise, the status quo will hold, and that is not good for this country, nor for myself and my family.

Anonymous said...

I'm confused. My friends are all universally non criminal professionals. I teach about 30 white women every 3 weeks handgun safety and concealed carry and defensive use.

My family including extended are college educated non criminal. (lawyer, judge, police officer, army general, doctor, dentist, business owners) their kids are the same our family demands excellence.

We live in an area that is representative of our social economic peers. Prob slightly less than 10% black about 25% other minorities and about 65% white. I have served as HOA president last year and sit on the board. We have private security and low crime. We all work to keep it that way. (I'll admit it's easier as our streets are private and all entrances are armed guarded and we pay for it) most crime in our area are tied back to the kids of residents acting out (vandalism a few car break ins and last summer some kids put large fireworks in a few mailboxes we caught them cause one blew up on them and they had to go to hospital. All these cases were white kids believe it or not).

I don't understand how I am responsible for underachieving and criminal black people any more than you are responsible for the whites who are on gov assistance not doing their part and commit crimes.

I do volunteer with a youth group that focuses on young minority males by showing them they can be anything the want with hard work and staying clean and responsible. I also volunteer with the boy scouts at my church (mostly black troop) even fought the powers that be to get our scouts in to shooting and we had our first boys ever to earn merit badges in shooting (unheard of in the troops 25+ year existence)

Why should I not live in an area that accepts me (my nebihors actually like me and my family but some where apprehensive when I purchased a few years ago at age 25years old (15 year fixed mort.)

You see I judge people by their actions but I also have hit instincts based on stereotypes and experience. For me if approached by someone late at night and the person appears threatening (fast appr

Anonymous said...

Meg

For everyone saying Rodney King was an innocent victim. The man was drunk driving at 2.5 times the legal limit and high on PCP. He led officers on a high speed chase because drunk driving would have violated his parole for a robbery conviction.

If you watch the video, he was resisting arrest. Not lying down. He got up and tossed 2 officers off his back and then pushed another in the chest. If he had just laid down as he was told. He would not have been hit.

This has nothing to do with racism. It was a drunk high man, who led police on a high speed chase, and then resisted arrest. Guaranteed he was high on something more than marijuana when he died.



BarbT
0
1

Meg, thanks for pointing out these "inconvenient truths" the Marxist media has buried. The race baiters and liberal robots are very uncomfortable with facts that don't mesh with their agenda which is to keep us ALL -- black & white -- stuck in a time warp of racial division that ended decades ago.
From TMZ

This world would have been a much better place if that CHP officer had just capped his stupid @ss.

And irony of ironies it was the LAPD who saved his life.

"Worst.... Racists... EVER!"

Anonymous said...

Rodney king was quite possibly the worse example of police brutality to be used

Let's see he was high on mind altering strength generating illegal drugs. The tasers did not work (bak then they actuall used much more electricity and ha no/limited safety features.

Honestly the cops prob should have shoot him. I hat to say this but they litteraily had no choice they beat the sh!t outta him and he still would not comply .

Rey could have gotten killed. The resultin riot caused the destruction of many successful black business and the building s tw leased which were owned by mostly Asian small business people who worked their asses off over 2-3 generations to get to that point. Tey also set race relations back 20 years.

It directly lead to the acquittal of OJ Simpson (guilty as sin) the creation of the karashians and left areas that still to this day have not been rebuilt.

Young professional black guy

Anonymous said...

Being able to get back on target post-recoil is a factor in combat.

Nota bene

Real life is not like Hollywood movies where heroes and heroines can firs two handguns effortlessly at the same time.

Look up youtube for the woman who almost knocks herself out because she was not prepared for the recoil.

Anonymous said...

I would only add that it seems also that so often these "good ones" have children who grow up with TNB even when they are raised in nice White neighborhoods.

The racist media may have forgotten Saint Skittles of Sanford but .45Jack has not!

Anonymous said...

I understand that and am for redo/elimination of affirmative action.

While that may surprise some let me explain. My grandfather went from waiting tables and being a bell hop to joining the military, going to a negro teachers college becoming a teacher going back to this same school getting his masters and raising a family of 6 children who all except one (retired army Sargent major now works for an to be unnamed contractor who is now head quartered in Dubai). I don't doubt AA help my parents get into college in the late 60s early 70s. This was the design of AA. Their kids my generation was supposed to be on equal footing. I can honestly say I because of my parents never really lack any oprotunites and excelled. Unfortunately that did not happen across the board.

When in high school my good friend that went to the white high school in our district (I went out of district to the black high school cause parents made me) you see my friend played hockey with me for years. His grades were not as good as min nor his sat but he was no slacker either. I know kids that got into the premier university I went to with worse grades and sat than him and they got in because of AA. I did not hunk it was fair. Why? For one he was my friend I knew him well he was a great kid but he was a White Male . Believe it or not that it seamed like a penalty and I did no think it was fair. Long story short he went to another university for 2 years transferred to the same university I attended and we were great buds. The 2 people I knew from my high school that got in because of AA but dropped/failed out. Not all the black kids from my high school that went to premier schools were affirmative action picks but the ones that were mostly did not get that far)

I see that AA benefited me mostly by way of my parents but it has to be radicly changed ASAP.

If people want to help the lower class move up offer them merit based scholarships that are race neutral and are limited to socioeconomic classes to race.

No reason Jhonny white boy who is poor but busts his but in school and other activities should be passed over for.

Mike the child of 2 AA action reviving college educated parents

Anonymous said...

Ex Army here. On guns. A gun is only yours as long as you have room to use it, only get as close as you have to. The physical aspects of combat are fairly easy, it is the mental that is the difficult part and the hardest to turn off after reversal. 9mm Nato ball, piss poor man stopper, +p rather good however. Like anything it's practice practice practice. Colt .45 acp cock of the walk IMO, maybe nostalgia dunno. But if you are stuck with one pistol and one rifle my personal rec is 1911 and AK, proven weapons that perform their work flawlessly. A note on shot placement, a smaller round will perform quite well with proper shot placement (talking killshot here) with blacks think like a dog and go for the throat. There is a lot going on in there and you are fairly likely to hit something vital. Twelve gauge lethality is outstanding and 00 Buck within 50 yards is typically one hit shit, hollywood movies notwithstanding. I would also quite frankly recommend stockpiling ammo if possible as the only conceivable explanation for fast and furious as I see it, is an attempt at a run on the second amendment. That is all.

Anonymous said...

Sorry to high jack the thread I ended up here doing research for my next defensive pistol class. Google sent me here on a search about justified self defense shootings.

I really am black and the high school went to crap in less than ten years. Just so you know the high school was near an originally all black negro college it was one of the first integrated and produced some great students it was highly rigorous and a great experience. In 10 years it's now an under performing school and only getting worse most of the kids there are now more worried about the newest Js (Jordan sneakers costing over $150) and other trappings of the ghetto lifestyle and not really caring abou their future why should they the liberals and the government will take car of them.


But here is the thing in my town overwhelmingly the sexual assaults are done by white men.

I believe good people. Good decent people can live together even different race people. I don't believe their is this primal difference between the races I do belove there is a diff between a child who sees his dad work hard and earn a living and a child who never sees or knows his dad and just sees the pimps and drug pushers and his mom who has no job and gets a check in the mail and a special magic ATM card that every month feeds them.

I don't belive there is a building race war coming I belive it will be more of a have vs have nots when the ability of tw government to force the haves to support the have nots is gone. When that magic ATM card (Ebt card) does not work. That will be the zombie appocalpyes.

I don't belive you really hate blacks or even want them to all move away. I do belive you want all these freeloaders gone. I belive u want your kids to have the same chance as all kids and yourself the same chance at a promotion as a black coworker.

Belive it or not there are a lot of black people that agree with eliminating preference and moving our society more to a free market merit based system we were supposed to be.

Marcus Redman said...

To Mr. Ray Scissom.

You seem to contradict yourself. On the one hand you tell us you do nothing to bring yourself to the attention of the police. But on the other hand, you tell us that when you are pulled over you go through a list of protocols, turning on the interior ceiling light, taking your keys out of the ignition, rolling down your window, and talking with respect and deference to the "armed and trained" police "officer". It seems to be a well-rehearsed and much-practised respose.

So, although you are a law-abiding citizen, survival seems to require your behaving in response to unjustified stops much like the most abject subject of an Oriental monarchy.

That well-trained "officer" has on average a below average IQ and the two or three months of "training" have left him strangely bereft of much knowledge of the law or the rights of a citizen.

The presence of blacks in quantity is not worth it if we have to sacrifice most of our self respect.

Anonymous said...

Young black guy again.

I got converted to the 1911 and the good ole 45acp from a retired old white guy that lives a few houses down from me. This old military man meet me the first day I looked at the house with my realtor. He asked me a million questions (who I was, what I did was I married (at the time I was not), did I throw parties, and then told me he was gonna look me up. I smiled and respectfully answered his questions. (why? Cause he was my elder, 2 he was obviously retired military he flew the colors on a large flag pole and also flew the MIA flag in his yard, 3 he lived there and I really liked the area. When I closed on the house and moved in he watched me. When the moves begin to move my safes in the house he came over and asked what I need safes for I told him I shoot for fun and was a member at the local gun club. A few weeks later this old
Man came right up to me with a rifle bag and aske he could use my armors equipment to get a stuck case out of his rifle. I took him into my gun room and we had been good friends ever since. He introduced me to the 1911 by letting me shoot his gun he got when he retired. Needless to say a week later I bought my springfield arms TRP operator on his recommendation.

This old man got me in to reloading and we shoot together atleast once a month. He told me one time he really did look me up but not for my company but in a criminal background check. It came back clean. He said he wanted to know how a young black guy could acquire the wealth I had at my age leagly. I showed him that all threw college I worked and I worked my but off so that I had a stable company upon graduation and it paid off. He respect me and I respect him. Later that ear at a nebihors house party I found out he did the same thing to almost every one that bought out there regardless of race.

So yes thanks to JB the grumpy old white
Man I am a 1911 super fan. Why shoot twice 45 acp drops em.

Marcus Redman said...

To "Mike the child of 2 AA action reviving college educated parents":

My parents and I were all educated on scholarships. My father's brother and two sisters all left the Scottish school system when they were fourteen or fifteen, during the 1930s. With the exception of "to Mike and I" wrong-case errors they make no mistakes in spelling and grammar.

There's no need for you to explicitly tell us about affirmative action, Mike. Your writing tells us just what was the quality of the education you earned at your"premier university".

Marcus Redman

RobertB said...

"Coming full circle, Blacks under the influence of PCP and other heavily psychoactive drugs now exhibit a startling immunity to riot clubs, tasers and gunshot wounds. "

It was common practice in Africa and India for the natives to get hopped up on drugs before battle. This is nothing new when it comes to white/non-white warfare. The good news is, that while it may take a few more rounds to put them down, no one thinks too well when doped up--especially you know who.

In other news, I got my permit yesterday in the mail, but only opened it today--nice Father's Day "gift".

On small caliber guns:

They make very little noise, depending on the situation--thats a very good thing. My first gun, at age 8, was a single shot, Remington bolt action .22. It had been my dad's gun when he was a little boy and I have already given it to my youngest who will turn 8 this summer and celebrate by going to the farm to go shooting.

My dad could have dropped you with a .22 pistol to the head at 50 FT. easily --even at age 80. My dad thought hunting pheasants with a shotgun was silly--but he could take them on the fly with a .22 rifle. Best pistol shooter I ever saw. I have seen shotgun pros better with a shotgun, but no one with a rifle.

The thing to remember when shooting--is never panic, remain clam,relaxed and squeeze the trigger. Even in the old West, the man who remained calm and did not flinch was the man who walked away, not always the man who got off the first shot. Most amateurs will blink or flinch when they pull (and thus jerk) the trigger. Calm, relaxed and deliberate. NO FEAR, just intent.

MuayTyson said...

To the Anon. black man,

I can only speak for myself and no one else on the board but please hear what I have to say. Number one I am no convinced you are black. Many "well" meaning or DWL come to this board and troll.

Number two if you are black then you are obviously one of the talented 10% or 1% what ever it maybe.

I can tell you exactly what I want. I want what the Constitution has promised, freedom of association, freedom of speech, etc. I also want my taxes to go to the truly needy not to subsidized an overwhelming population of one race.

If you are really a black man with an above average IQ and the ability to behave in spite of your racial traits(Poor time orientation, no ability to delay gratification, hyper-sexuality, etc.) Then I have no problem with you. I only want the freedom to associate with you IF I choose and the freedom to express my opinion without penalty IF I choose.

Currently I live in Asia. I am a guest here I am a minority so I live by their rules as much as I am able. If as a country they choose to end their association with me and tell me to leave it is their right. If they choose to exclude me from certain activities, employment, areas it is their right. Even if I became a citizen I am still a stranger in a strange land and a minority I understand this why don't blacks get it?

Anonymous said...

That post got cut what I was saying is in this day in age there is no reason for a minority to get preference over a majority person if things are truly merit based.

What I was trying to say is mike was born in the 1990s with parents that got the benefit of affirmative action. And Johnny is a poor white male. Johnny performs better acedemicly than mike but mike gets accepted because of AA and Johnny gets wait listed or not accepted.

What I am saying is that's wrong and very unfair and. It what afrmative action was supposed to be about 30+ years after it was started.

And I know I have bad spelling (even on this iphone) I also know I made the right career path choice by getting into an area where spelling did not matter.

But I don't support
Affirmative action but do support programs that give a chance to those in the lower classes regardless of race. It is not fair to deny opportunity to anyone because of race. Society as a whole is hurt by the current system.

Denise said...

10 Mm AUTO - I knew is was you - but I was out all day. It's now 9:20PM, where I am .

GREAT job!!!! Really fascinating data. Important and relevant sociological info. I just used this in arguing with a singularly demented DWL.

Thanks!

Ray Scissom said...

I never said the stops were unjustified. Like many others, I tend to have a lead foot. I've been pulled over for speeding about 8 times in the twenty or so years I've been driving. I have also been stopped once for an expired vehicle registration (on the way to the DMV no less) and for a headlight being out. In almost every case, my routine puts the officer at ease to approach me and I've gotten mostly warnings or a "failure to obey" ticket which in PA means zero points and a <$100 fine. One time (younger days) I was caught with beer underage and a nice sized bag of weed and didn't even get so much as a warning. I don't personally agree with much of what our militarized police do around the country, but I have no problem treating the ones I encounter with respect and have found that most of them return the courtesy. If they were breaking down my door at 3am in a no-knock raid on the wrong address, I'm not sure I'd feel the same, but we're talking about traffic stops where it's mostly rookies and the guys who couldn't make the grade for a better job, not a SWAT team.

Paul's Biggest Fan said...

Exceptionally thought provoking, 10mm AUTO! Many thanks for the excellent lesson and retrospective. Mankind does adapt, yes?

Jay Santos said...

Anonymous said...

...Either one would be bad enough by itself,but together the two make a combination that has for the most part turned every police force in the country into something that-when compared to the police departments I was familiar with 30 years ago-can no longer be recognized.


That's a fine summary of the situation. The people in this country have changed. While the percentage of negroes hasn't increased, their natural behavior is now unrestrained. We've got possibly as many as 30 million illegal aliens within the borders, many from cultures short on moral standards. Finally, we've got some portion of the native white population who now ape the thug culture, maybe that's how they can get laid today.

If I were a cop in any but the most peaceful of places, I suppose I'd act precisely the way I see them act.

All this growth in policing, tactics, and attitude is completely consistent with the desires of the ruling elite. Oppressive state control, it's where they're taking you.

RobertB said...

I get a kick out of people telling novices to buy a .45 auto--yeah right. The ammo is spendy. Even if you end up owning one, start out with something sensible and cheap to practice with. Besides, the average person is not going to likely be able to hang onto the gun--you absolutely need to use two hands on a gun like that. What's more is, as you age, you are unlikely to be able to cock it quickly and efficiently. The recoil w/ any .4X gun is tremendous. It is not a gun for the average person.

I guarantee you that two or three .32 or .38 rounds in the chest are going to stop whoever is about to attack you. I also sincerely doubt his buddy is going to hang out on the off chance you might run out of ammo. Ever seen the look on someone's face when they have a gun pointed at them? I have--it usually looses all color while the eyes go wide and the jaw hits their chest. I'm sure the ex-cops on here will verify that for you.

Lets keep moving on here. Just how big and heavy is a .45? BIG AND HEAVY. You are not likely to tuck that into a coat pocket or your pants without it being noticed. Even a shoulder holster with a .45 in it under your jacket is going to be noticed as you move around. Not a good idea. And I agree with whoever it was that pointed out the obvious impact a large caliber gun is going to have on a jury. The bigger the gun, the more likely you will be seen as a nut job by the average person.

If things get really bad, that will change--but as yet it is not open warfare.

What was the most common caliber used by "hitmen" in the 70's and 80's? .22. one shot to the head is all it takes. If I can kill a deer with a .22 LR hollow point, I can kill a person with it. the damn deer weighs 300+ pounds. .38 is just fine.

Do you all understand that the only real difference between a .22 and a .223 is the length (amount of powder) of the shell? A pistol does not need to be a high velocity round. You are not shooting through walls, doors or at long range with it.

Whiskey said...

10 MM Auto -- great job. BTW, I've shot the 10mm. Like it, but its a handful.

The 1911 is a great shooting pistol, flat, proven in combat for a century, and in the Commander size fairly concealable, it is large but again, flat. Flatter than a double stack 9 mm.

It is probably worth looking at what the Old West gunfighters used. By all accounts, Hickok used .36 Colt Navy revolvers. Hardin used Colt SAA and later a Colt Lightning Revolver in .38 caliber. Earp and Bat Masterson (the only two Old West gunfighters who seemed non sociopathic) used Colt SAA and Smith and Wesson .44 Russians.

The Old West .44 and .45 Colt cartridges were (when they hit, sights were minimal and black powder fouled the air quickly) fairly deadly. The current .44 Special is fairly close in ballistic profile to the old .44 S&W/Russian rounds. The .45 Colt does not have much of a rim, you are probably better off with a .44 Special revolver.

Charter Arms is now making the Bulldog in that caliber, so too Smith and Wesson, and Taurus. It is an expensive round to shoot though. If I were to shoot .45 ACP, just me, I'd rather shoot an auto than a moonclip revolver.

As far as police go, after any shooting no matter how justified they are not your friend. Ask for a lawyer, and a visit to a hospital to examine your injuries. Make sure they are photographed and kept. Police in a shooting have one job -- put away the guy who does NOT have an army of lobbying groups behind him. Because thats what their captains and lieutenants want, because that's what their police chiefs want. Had Zimmerman followed this advice he would be free today.

MuayTyson said...

I am by far not a gun nut and only know the basics taught at a LEO Academy.
When I worked security I carried a hammer-less .38 5 shot. I like revolvers no jamming to worry about and it fit under my coat or in my pancake holster well.

There is a comfort factor in carrying a weapon and besides most shootings are under 10 ft.

Good article 10mm was an enjoyable read.

.45jack said...

"RobertB said...

I get a kick out of people telling novices to buy a .45 auto--yeah right. The ammo is spendy. Even if you end up owning one, start out with something sensible and cheap to practice with. Besides, the average person is not going to likely be able to hang onto the gun--you absolutely need to use two hands on a gun like that. What's more is, as you age, you are unlikely to be able to cock it quickly and efficiently. The recoil w/ any .4X gun is tremendous. It is not a gun for the average person."

Over one hundred years of usage by men, both in and out of the military, would suggest that the .45 1911 is indeed for the average person. I know we have become a nation of girly men - but not all of us. Although it has a kick to it it is hardly what I would consider "tremendous".

And of course the ammo is "spendy". But what price do you put on your own life? Your family's? If you are repelling down a mountain do you want to be using the top quality rope or the discount special? (There are quality .22 conversion kits for the 1911 which makes it extremely inexpensive for marksmanship practice).

Of course accuracy is more important than caliber. But there is a difference between killing a 300 pound deer with a .22 head shot and shooting a charging PCPed up raging attacker. That is why center mass aiming is preferable to head shot training for the average person.

The internal damage done by a large caliber shot that misses the heart is much more severe than that by smaller calibers that also miss the heart. Look how many (c)rappers have been shot multiple times, mostly with 9mm, yet survived. 9mm sucks.(Zimmerman got off a lethal shot at extremely close range.) Try not to go below 30S&W if you can.

Remember what the pistol in your hand is for: stopping brute(s). Blacks do like to attack in packs you know. So, again, bring enough gun. As much as you can handle. It won't matter what a jury may think if you don't live through the attack.

Two Raven said...

Excellent article!

My comment:

I spend most of my time in a rural community in the NorthEast. No negroes here. So all I carry when I'm around here is an SP101 in .357 magnum. It's a 1.3/4" snubby and will do the job on any obnoxious 250 lb fella or even the occasional black bear with the 158 grain JSPs I use. I do not expect to get into any wars that require more than the 5 rounds that baby holds. Still, I carry two speed loaders with me because you never know.

That being said, when I have to venture into NY or BOS or any other places susceptible to have their share of TNB I do carry a Glock 23 (40S&W) plus two mags and an LCR for secondary.

For any of you out there who just OWN a gun, let me tell you that any caliber is worthless without regular training under stress. A shooting range will accomplish little to that end. Attend realistic training classes. Ones that get your adrenaline flowing.

Federale said...

.38 Special was a cartridge. The Police Positive was a Colt revolver.

I think you meant .39 S&W cartridge.

But in any event from 1900 to 1970 most police revolvers were .38 special. Few if any used the single action Colt for anything.

McCarr said...

Everyone who wants to learn to shoot well should start out with a .22 rimfire pistol. I would move on to a bigger caliber only after several hundred rounds in practice of both a target and then a practical draw nature.

With modern bullet designs and modern carry guns I can't see carrying a .45 for any reason besides nostalgia. I personally carry .357 SIG and think this or any of the 10mm/.40 cartridges are a good choice. And in a modern defensive carry pistol-sorry, the 1911 belongs along with lever guns and single action revolvers to the realm of history or nostalgia.

RobertB said...

.45jack-

Nobody head shoots deer. A hunter knows why.

At the age of 35 I could military press 10 LBs. more than I weighed and routinely carried a 200 LB., four inch diameter, five foot long steel "pneomo-gopher" boring tool--commonly known as a "Bullet". attached to it was a 1 inch diameter, 100 Ft. long steal braided hose. Man handling a 100LB. jack-hammer was a piece of cake (except it's really called a "paving breaker")

Hardly a "girly man". I am willing to be bet you couldn't do that on your best day. I had lots of weight lifting pretty boys who came to work for me--most couldn't hold up to the standard "ditch digger" who never lifted free weights but did shovel and hump steel pipe around.

I don't want to have to dress for my gun. I want guns that can be worn with any kind of clothing. To that end, I even have a 4 shot derringer that can be tucked into pants or short pockets and not be noticeable. An 8.5 inch long .45 necessitates a jacket to be even mildly concealed. A suit and an over coat, it will be fine. If all I'm wearing is a winter jacket, I want it in my jacket pocket so I can access it without anyone noticing what I am doing--no one thinks anything of someone with their hands in their coat/jacket pockets. I can fire it from there too.

WHiskey--

I don't think you quite grasp the difference between carrying a gun on your hip (open carry) and a concealed carry. Two very different applications. I watched Johnny Carson one night many years ago (I think available on youtube) when he had the two oldest surviving "gunslingers" on. They both said the same thing. It wasn't speed--no fast draw, it was the man who was calm and deliberate who won the gun battle. Most did not carry big guns--didn't need to. They needed to be accurate.

The debate over guns is reminiscent of the one over which martial arts was better--Korean Karate or Jui-Jitsu. In a real life situation, you don't have 30ft of room to throw a stepping side kick. You have less than five ft--face to face. jui-jitsu came to rule the roost in the open style, full contact fighting without much effort--think "Gracy". So too, how much room and time do you have to get the gun out of the holster and raised up to pull the trigger? The second you move to pull that gun a real thug is going to rush you and is likely already doing so. How long, should you miss, is it going to take you to pull that gun back down and level it for the next shot? It isn't a range, it isn't a combat zone, it's the real world--the street.

And all of this talk about people not reacting to a bullet--just how many of these thugs shot every day get up and run away? Hmm? Not many.

RobertB said...

"The internal damage done by a large caliber shot that misses the heart is much more severe than that by smaller calibers that also miss the heart"

I disagree with that--beyond the pure "splat factor", there is the real world. Large caliber rounds will go right through you, the small caliber rounds will ricochet off bones and do even more damage bouncing around. Real world case in point. 16 year old shot by a .32 Baretta in the mid section. Bullet went in tearing the stomach wall, bounced off a rib bone, took out the spleen and the kidney and lodged in the spine. At the time, the "specialist" testified that had it been a higher caliber, it would most likely have gone straight through and not left the victim a paralyzed diabetic. The entry hole was about the size of a 1/4--I know, I was the first person to lift his hand as he lay on the ground (impact of bullet dropped him) and see the wound. He was shot from a distance of 3ft. or slightly less. I was 13, at the time. I got to him in less than a minute after the gun shot was heard. Macalester College, April, 1972.

He died about 4 years ago, after living a pretty messed up existence. A second round would have killed him on the spot.

I had a nickel plated .357 magnum back in the late 80's. Too damn heavy to carry in any real way without it being noticeable.

Anonymous said...

The green revolution and the welfare state have produced much larger and healthier criminals, interesting post.


"While the overall population of blacks has actually dropped (as a percentage of the population)" - This is the product of mass immigration, the black population itself shot upward like a rocket post 1960, and has more than doubled since then.

Anonymous said...

53GR says,
Glad to see an article that generates some discussion on self-defense. I'd be really happy if there were more articles specifically on how to avoid becoming a victim of the various types of crime (pack attacks and such).

Zenster said...

Cool beans, 10 mm AUTO, you cracked the 100 comment barrier with your very first post. Again, sincere congratulations!

map said...

No one here should make the mistake of confusing "stopping power" with lethality. The .22LR is extremely deadly. It is not a bb gun round.

The problem with a .22LR is that it could take 10 minutes for a person to die from that round. In 10 minutes, a thug can do a lot of damage.

I would suggest to everyone getting a gen4 Glock 23. The G23 has 3 interchangeable barrel options (9mm, .40 and .357SIG) as well as .22LR conversion kits for cheaper practice.

Modern defensive ammo (Corbon DPX and original) is extremely effective in these calibers and will run in the Glock without a hitch.

Btw, people are making a big deal of the Federal HST ammo, but this stuff runs at about 424 ft/lbs of muzzle energy. Corbon 9mm's run at about that and their .357SIGs top out at 575 ft/lbs.

These are more than adequate numbers to drop a thug.

Ruger makes the LCR pocket revolver in .357 Magnum at 17 ozs. The grips and the polymer frame do a good job cushioning recoil.

MuayTyson said...

Jack,

It Gracie as in GJJ or BJJ. Problem with Gracie Jiu Jitsu is it is so close a range it inhibits duty belts or even you simple concealed weapon.

Grappling is an important art to know for self defense purposes but something like Krav Maga or Military tacticals maybe better for the armed person. IMHO.

Anonymous said...

Ret'd LAPD here. Zenster asked about the North Hollywood gun battle between two bank robbers and the cops.

I wasn't working that day but talked with many who were. It became painfully clear that the lack of a long gun put the cops at a severe disadvantage, despite many officers pleading for such a rifle for years.

The brass didn't want to be seen as "militarizing" us any more than we already were, so every attempt at getting a long gun was quashed. It took a situation like this to wake up the PC idiots and get them hip to what was being encountered on the streets.

One Sergeant told me he wished someone, anyone, with a hunting rifle would see what was happening from their apartment window and just pop those fuckers in the head.

Mr. Rational said...

One Sergeant told me he wished someone, anyone, with a hunting rifle would see what was happening from their apartment window and just pop those fuckers in the head.

You mean the way civilians pinned Whitman down in the UT clock tower?

Given the persecutorial anti-gun attitude of Californian pols, it's not surprising that nobody was willing to put their life on the line to help the cops.

Anonymous said...

What I am saying is that's wrong and very unfair and. It what afrmative action was supposed to be about 30+ years after it was started.

Just a random thought here, but I'd say that AA was never about equality; it was intended to dispossess white people and give preference to blacks. It's what political scientists would call an ideological rationalization for a system of oppression. Back in the segregation era, there were all sorts of arguments for whites getting preferences; in the integration era there are all sorts of arguments for blacks getting preferences. And these preferences are enforced by AA and a raft of other policies.

The civil rights movement was never about equality. It was about blacks gaining supremacy. The difference between segregation and integration is that at least blacks understood that segregation worked against them. Under integration, most whites believe we are entering a magic land of "equality."

Welcome to the land of the Blue Pill.

Laz said...

@ RobertB: Where have you been? There are tons of easily concealable compact and sub-compact .45's on the market today.

I started with a mini 1911 but, it was too heavy. I've now conceal-carried a Glock 30 (.45 compact) for several years now and nobody has ever said anything to me about it- because they couldn't see it. I'm 6' and weight 170lbs (skinny), if I can conceal it without a problem then pretty much anybody can.

A smaller caliber MIGHT stop them but, a .45 WILL stop them. A .45 has been proven to cavitate much more than smaller rounds- even when it goes right through.

I've known 3 people who had to defend themselves and the one with the 9mm had to put 6 rounds in them before they stopped. The two with .45's put them down in one shot, ONE SHOT.

I'll take a dead criminal over a paralyzed diabetic criminal any day.

As for people not being able to handle a .45 you can tell it to my mom. She's 63 and never shot a gun until 2 years ago and she shoots my dad's Glock 36 (.45 sub-compact) just fine, recoil and all. BTW:She had a 3 inch spread at 7 meters at the range on Sunday. The polymer Glock is much easier to shoot than the air weight .38 dad got her. She won't even shoot the .38 because it bruised her hand so bad she couldn't hold anything in it for two days.
-----------------

For those who want to know: I carry a Glock 30 and have a 12 gauge for home defense. Dad carries a Glock 36 and uses a 1911 for home defense as well as a .45ACP carbine and AR-15 if the SHTF.
-----------------

For anybody who can't figure out what they need: Go down to the gun range and rent a gun to see if you like it.

Zenster said...

Ret'd LAPD: One Sergeant told me he wished someone, anyone, with a hunting rifle would see what was happening from their apartment window and just pop those fuckers in the head.

Thank you very much for responding, Ret'd LAPD. Your comment is very revealing as it goes a long way towards outlining what many contributors here have noted. Namely, that lots of urban LEO don't have a big problem with legitimate gun ownership or concealed carry.

Again, your feedback on those issues would be exceptionally cogent to this article. If possible, would you care to review 10 mm AUTO's overall conclusions? Your input has substantial credibility and the author would benefit a lot from some detailed corroboration by a law enforcement professional such as yourself.

Also, any contributions over in the "Two Kings" thread would get a really warm reception. I'm sure you were in the thick of it. Again, thank you for the additional comment.

.45jack said...

To RobertB:

I apologize if you thought I was implying you were a girly-man. That was not my intent. I don't know you. And you do not know me.

My point is that self-defense shooting is, for lack of a better term, a full-contact sport.

Let me pause here to clearly state that defensive weapon craft is not a sport or a game. It is vicious. It is brutal. It is literally life and death. As such, anyone who can't wrap their minds around that is indeed a girly-man. (Again, I am not directing this at anyone specific.) I only use sports metaphors to illustrate my point.

Just as no one should go into a street fight thinking that they should pull their punches so their knuckles won't get sore, neither should one not bring the biggest bore they can handle to a gun fight. (Most people can handle more than they think.)

Why throw three jabs which just slows the attacker down when you can knock him out with one solid straight punch?

Of course no one should be head shot hunting deer. My point is there is a world of difference between aiming at a deer standing in a field and shooting at a charging bear.

And just as I would not recommend using a Ruger Super Redhawk in .454 Casull as a concealed weapon in the city I also would not recommend carrying a .380 tucked inside my waist in grizzly country.

(Well, ok, the Redhawk might be needed more in Detroit than in Yellowstone.)

I am just advising to not underestimate what you're up against. A doped up urban beast is a very dangerous animal.

I do not argue that the .45 1911 should be carried by everyone. I merely suggest that it is a good starting point. I don't carry one (forgive me Col. Cooper!) I carry a FNP 45. It, like a lot of autos, is based on the 1911 except it is a DA/SA. It is one of the largest autos and should not be carried by everyone. I do because I am well trained and skilled. As I have said, each should find out what they are comfortable with. (BTW the 1911 comes in many sizes from full size to ultra compact).

Each gun has its trade offs. Glocks, Sigs, XDs, M&Ps, etc. each come in different calibers yet remain about the same in size, weight and functionality. And although capacity is lessened by going with the larger calibers I argue that a .45 Glock is better than a 9mm Glock when confronted with a full blown chimp out.

And of course train. Train. Train. And then train some more.

More importantly, one must continually develop their gun-fu martial arts mindset.
Like all martial arts, gun-fu relies on being aware of your situation, avoidance if possible, and decisive action if necessary.

RobertB said...

MuayTyson, that was me, not Jack on Jiu-Jitsu.

I began it when I was 11--2hrs/day 5 days per week, 4 hours on Saturday. Live, full contact. 2.5 years. I was never taught the pretty stuff, just what was effective--particularly in close quarters. I fought roughly 100 bouts between the age of 13 and 15. I stopped practicing at that age and quit entirely not long after. My older brother went on to tai-kwon-do, dropped it shortly thereafter--it was silly stuff. He moved on to Southern Preying Mantis kung-fu and stayed with it for 25 more years. He believes it to be the best in close quarter combat.

All that being said, I have been attacked three times as an adult--mugged if you will. While certainly not as proficient as I was in my youth, I was just fine in that in all three cases, it was the attackers who were taken to the hospital, not me. In all three cases I used what ever was handy as a weapon--that was part of my teaching. In two of those cases, had there not been large numbers of witnesses, I would have been charged with assault. I was in the third case but beat it with a good attorney. It turned out he had just gotten off probation for two assault and batteries in 2 years--3 mos. before he came at me.

Why? Because cops automatically assume that whoever is standing is the guy who threw the first punch, thats why. That is the view because 95% of the people out there will not fight back when attacked. Especially when the other guy needs 17 stitches and 13 staples to close the wounds on his head.

So, when engaged in a fight for what might be your life, start screaming for help even as you do your worst. People will remember that it was you who was screaming for help. Got that?

RobertB said...

.45jack--

I understand what you're getting at. I just think differently. I am always aware of what's going on around me--I grew up in the inner city. Have had hundreds of fights. I have, twice as a teenager, fought two or more blacks at once. I have been mugged three times as an adult. the first chimp out cost me a chipped tooth, but I hammered the first one in. The second chimp out cost me a broken nose, but I held my ground.

Im the guy in the restaurant, no matter how nice or a low end mom and pop, who insists on the table at the back wall. IN a bar, I will always have my back to the wall--always. In a public place, I always size up who is there and what they possibly are--and I do that as if second nature.

But we aren't at a point of open war--yet. Not just yet. If I get taken to the ground, I will not lose my cool and I will not lose my gun. I will simply put it to his head and pull the trigger. I know I will do this because I have done something similar. While laying on a stack of broken pop bottles and my attacker (charged me from behind) on top of me, I calmly reached out and grabbed a 1 liter bottle and broke over his head. It didn't seem to phase him. The next bottle I grabbed did not break, but his head did--there were splatter marks all over the wall next to us. The blow that came after that is what got him off of me. Coincidently, the one mentioned above that landed me in court was a three blow case as well. Three blows with 5 battery maglight. I had to justify use of force. Case was dropped 10 minutes before jury selection was to begin. In the case of the pop bottles, he was high on PCP and alcohol--loaded to the gills. Thats why the first two blows had no effect. the second guy was just big--6'2", 230lbs. I'm 5'10", 172lbs.

RobertB said...

LAPD-

Many years ago there was a shoot out on the east side of St. Paul. Two cops were ambushed by a couple of blacks. The first cop went down immediately, the second one went down after a short running battle. The only witness to the double murder was a white guy hunter who lived in an apartment building on the second floor across the street. He called 911.

At trial, the defense questioned how he could identify the shooters at such long range and in semi-dark circumstances. He replied that he had been watching them through his rifle scope as the incident unfolded. The incredulous defense attorney asked why, since he had a gun and a scope, did he not fire on the assailants, he replied that he was fearful of being charged with manslaughter.

I think every cop in the city had to have heard that. But w/o laws to protect would be good Samaritans, no one is going to stick their necks out. Not unless they have the money to piss away on lawyers.

Anonymous said...

The 9mm is an undervalued cartridge.

The general public, including most would-be casual gun owners on this forum, will have their hands full trying to be accurate with a 9mm, let alone a .40. .45, or .357 sig.

Shooting handguns, accurately, isn't that easy, and requires more practice than most gun owners put in. If you don't believe me, and have little to no experience, take a trip to your local range and rent a gun before buying into a higher caliber weapon.

Those latter cartridges should be considered for people that have their shooting skills at a medium to high level, imo.

Even then, they are tough to justify unless you plan on the type of violent engagements that have almost zero probability of occurring for civilians(shooting through barriers, against considerably greater firepower, etc). In realty, the type of engagement that the average gun-owner is going to encounter (home break in, street robbery, unarmed mob, etc), shot placement is going to be much more valuable than is caliber. In other words, you will more appreciate the ability to be accurate/fast than you will a slight caliber increase.

If you hit the target (center mass/head) with even a 115 grain FMJ 9mm, he's going down. If you are using hollow points, which you should be to reduce over-penetration, then the stopping power increases because more energy is being transferred to the target and a larger hole is being made in the organs of the attacker. A good quality hollow point can expand to the diameter of a .45, making it a .45 equivalent against flesh. Hit him multiple times to be sure, accurately. Follow up shots will be easier with the 9mm that the other calibers mentioned. You can kill someone with a .32 ACP, easily, which is what my grandfather was issued in WWII in Africa. A 9mm is much more power than a .32 ACP. They will both make holes in flesh and organs, from which the attacker will likely die or be incapacitated. There is no magic to taking down human beings. Your poking holes. That's it. Even relatively small holes in vital organs will stop or kill you. It's about hitting them in the right spots, more than it is caliber, for civilians.

As a matter of fact, the only reason I don't carry a .32 or .380 is ammo cost and decreased rim-fire reliability. 9mm happens to be the best mix of affordability, reliability, and stopping power, imo. Otherwise, I would feel fine with one of the aforementioned cartridges as a carry defense, as they lend themselves to smaller, more convenient weapons that can be handled easier than small 9mm weapons. As a matter of fact, the equally expensive (to 9mm) smaller .380 is an exceedingly popular cartridge because of the small, easier to handle weapons that chamber it.

The last thing to remember is that no matter what caliber handgun ammo you use, it's still a handgun and considered inadequate for real (go-to-war) defense. Handguns exist because they are a compromise between portability and lethality. You are supposed to hold danger at bay or shoot and run with them, not defend your family against a well a armed foe. The only reason cops use handguns is because rifles are too heavy and bulky to carry everywhere.

Hence, get a shotgun for your home. Even a 20 gauge loaded with bird shot will be better than most handgun loads, even up to .45. At a range over 10-15 yards is another story, but in the home defense will generally be within range. Consider such a load equivalent to a .357 magnum, without nearly as much over-penetration potential. It will be safer in terms of possible collateral damage (neighbors) and the resultant liability. The long barrel makes it easier to be accurate.

Unless you live in a masonry home and hit the walls, your handgun bullet is likely going to embed itself in something one or more homes away, after it goes through your interior and exterior walls, and those of your neighbors. An average 9mm 115 grain bullet will penetrate through 8 or more pieces of drywall/ plywood. Siding is nothing.

Anonymous said...

The author is pretty much on target, great article. If you want a real eye opener, read http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm by some of the most world reknowned ballistics experts of all time. The proof is in the gelatin and in the hog carcasses they used. Very scientific. A lot of my conceptions turned out to be misconceptions. I will not reguritate this piece, but please read it yourself. After I did, I put away my .45 and put my 9mm back in service. It is now loaded with Winchester 124g +P Rangers (Winchester says only for law enforcement but you can get them from any friend that may be a LEO or even active military). The pics of expanded rounds will sureprise you. Enjoy!

Anonymous said...

I was talking guns one day on my bus route - school bus driver here- and a little guy in 5th grade whose dad is a cop said "the best handgub is a Judge". I asked, well who makes it? "Taurus. It fires .410 shells if you want. My dad says it is the best close quarters."
So there.

Discard said...

A .38 special revolver with full wadcutters combine serious tissue damage and energy transfer, with innocence. After all, they're just the relatively low-powered reloads they give you at the target range, not some nasty meant-to-kill-people hollowpoint or evil 15 round 9mm. If going to trial is a real concern, that gun with that ammo avoids the impression that you were looking forward to shooting someone. And after all, how many thugs are you really going to find in your living room? Six rounds of .38 are enough for home defense.

Mr. Rational said...

If you live in a place crazy enough to make a jury decide whether a perp killed in your living room (!) was justifiably shot or not (and even if you don't), you should not be using a weapon which requires multiple rounds to put one down; a shotgun is called for.

1 round of 12-ga in COM = 1 kill, and no persecuting attorney is going to argue that you fired too many times.

Discard said...

Mr Rational: I agree that a 12 gauge is the ideal defensive weapon generally, but sometimes one's living circumstances require something smaller and more easily hidden. Furthermore, I advocate control over power, particularly for the no-longer-young. I can't take the recoil I once could, and now favor smaller cartridges. Two hits with a .32 beats one miss with a .45 by a long way.

PistolPackinPolarBear said...

Wow.
The amount of myth and gun counter wisdom in here is painful.
If I wasnt on duty Id pick this apart.

The sentiment is nice, yes the police have armed themselves to the teeth, and with good reason as the boogs and beans tweaking on 'salts or whatever the hell need a few rounds to bring down (wanna Guess how I know?) but the sheer disinformation Here is unbelieveable. Its like a buncha Army E-3's sitting around slack jawing in the smoke pit.
Shamefull, as the better kind you must be 100% in your fact in everything. Any less makes you the same as the boons.

Discard said...

PPPBear: Come back when you're off duty. I'm interested in your take on things. We'll be here.